Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Saved Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Flip

1 2 3 4 5 6 ··· 11 12

Rob Bryson & Ruth Jones

295 replies

CaveMum · 14/06/2024 13:26

Just listened to the latest episode of Rob Brydon’s podcast where he interviews his long-term friend Ruth Jones.

I thought this exchange at the start was interesting - they know.

Ruth: “It's a lovely intro. Very, very nice. It always makes me interested when people describe me as an actor, because I think of myself as an actress.

Rob: I am being very politically correct.

Ruth: You are, but I always correct people's political correctness when it comes to describing me as an actress.

Rob: I'd rather say actress. I would naturally say actress.

Ruth: Thank you. And it's funny because sometimes I've been introduced or I've read an introduction to something I've been doing and they've called me an actor. I said, oh no, I'm an actress.

And they go, well, no, it's our policy to call you an actor. I go, I know, but I identify as an actress.

Rob: Once you decide to identify, won't be tied anybody who gets, I identify as five foot 10.

Why is that funny? That's what I'm identifying as. How tall am I, Ruth?

Ruth: Oh, maybe you are five foot 10. Are you?

Rob: No, I'm five foot seven. Maybe five foot six and a half now. But I'm identifying as five foot 10.

So I'll ask you again, how tall am I?

Ruth: You're five foot 10.

Rob: Thank you. We're too old for all this, aren't we?

Ruth: Oh, I don't understand it. Anyway, you can't even talk about not understanding anything, can you? You just have to go, I'm old.

I can't hear very well now. So just leave me out of the conversation. Thank you.”

From Brydon &: Ruth Jones, 13 Jun 2024
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/brydon/id1687943454?i=1000658813656
This material may be protected by copyright.

Brydon &: Ruth Jones on Apple Podcasts

‎Brydon &: Ruth Jones on Apple Podcasts

‎Show Brydon &, Ep Ruth Jones - 12 Jun 2024

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/brydon/id1687943454?i=1000658813656

Show more

OP posts:

Report

CleftChin · 15/06/2024 14:54

We need neutral for the general case. For specific cases I think using the gendered version is OK, although it can become a habit that you forget to switch for the general which is bad.

Headteacher, Chair, Firefighter, police officer etc.

Otherwise default male wins (or rarely default female) and that is where I have a problem.

RoyalCorgi · 15/06/2024 15:03

I'm old enough to remember terms like "manageress," "poetess" and even "Jewess" being in fairly common usage. "Authoress" wasn't common, but I've certainly heard it. Ditto songstress, though, as with authoress, that seemed rather quaint.

When I was a child, a female doctor was universally referred to as a "lady doctor". So generally the pattern is that the male is the default, and the female has something to indicate that it's specifically female (see also lioness, tigress etc).

In the 1980s there was a conscious move towards gender-neutral terms in job titles - firefighter, headteacher etc – and terms like manager and poet came to refer to both sexes.

I guess that the handful of terms that include reference to an individual's sex (waitress, barmaid and actress being the ones that spring to mind) have persisted for the fairly obvious reason that they are too professions where it helps to know the individual's sex. If you're in a pub or restaurant it is useful when you're talking about the staff to make it explicit whether you're talking about the male (waiter/barman) or female (waitress/barmaid). In acting, for the most part, casting agents still put calls out for males or females, and acting awards, similarly, are designated for either males or females. So for the sake of simplicity, the actor/actress distinction makes sense.

Trying to think of words other than "widow" where the female was the default, I came up with "seamstress."

LilyBartsHatShop · 15/06/2024 15:24

tobee · 15/06/2024 13:50

To me it highlights that saying "we'll get rid of all the old bad terms, and bring in these lovely new terms, so then everything will be perfect" is just too easy and doesn't really suit everything. At all times. In all ways.

Maybe Ruth Jones always had a dream to be an actress. And yet now she's being told "no no that's bad. Do as we tell you and be an actor. We've deemed that to be the correct way."

it’s the rigidity. The inflexibility. The dogma. The shutting up of dissenters.

And age is always bought into it.

Edited

That's a really good point.
I think something similar happens with words referring to different disabilities.

OnTheRightSideOfGeography · 15/06/2024 15:28

Trying to think of words other than "widow" where the female was the default, I came up with "seamstress."

And, interestingly, I don't think I've ever heard a man referred to as a 'seamster'. It would always be 'tailor'.

There was also a time, not all that long ago, where a man who played a central role in a restaurant would be referred to as a 'chef' - a proper responsible professional skilled position - but a woman doing exactly the same job would just be called a 'cook' - you know, just like she probably also does at home every evening anyway, so nothing special.

OnTheRightSideOfGeography · 15/06/2024 15:31

I wonder why we do it with some animals and not others, though?

Why a lioness or tigress, but not an ottress or hamstress?!

LilyBartsHatShop · 15/06/2024 15:45

Mary Daly lists more woman words in Websters' First New Intergalactic Wickedary of the English Language.
The suffix "-ster" as in "sister" and "webster" creates words that aren't based on male/generic.
I can't remember any other examples from the book, which is frustrating.
Spinster!! Of course. Spin sister, she who spins. I really like all that second wave language stuff.

ErrolTheDragon · 15/06/2024 15:48

OnTheRightSideOfGeography · 15/06/2024 15:31

I wonder why we do it with some animals and not others, though?

Why a lioness or tigress, but not an ottress or hamstress?!

With the lion/lioness it's maybe because of the obvious difference in hairstyle?

We have completely different sexed terms for farm animals, where their sex matters a lot to us. (Cow/bull , ewe/ram, sow/boar etc).

Whereas the sex of an otter is generally neither obvious nor important to us.

ErrolTheDragon · 15/06/2024 15:49

LilyBartsHatShop · 15/06/2024 15:45

Mary Daly lists more woman words in Websters' First New Intergalactic Wickedary of the English Language.
The suffix "-ster" as in "sister" and "webster" creates words that aren't based on male/generic.
I can't remember any other examples from the book, which is frustrating.
Spinster!! Of course. Spin sister, she who spins. I really like all that second wave language stuff.

But then isn't there brewer/brewster ?

RoyalCorgi · 15/06/2024 15:51

We have completely different sexed terms for farm animals, where their sex matters a lot to us. (Cow/bull , ewe/ram, sow/boar etc).

That's a good point, Errol. This stuff is really interesting, and sometimes puzzling. Take dog - "dog" is both the generic term and the term for a male, but if you wanted to refer specifically to a female you'd say "bitch".

On the other hand, with cats, "cat" is used for both male and female, but if you wanted to specify male you might say "tom-cat". Is there a female equivalent? She-cat, maybe?

Dale Spender is very good on all this stuff in Man Made Language. Would really recommend it to those who haven't already read it.

SmokeBlackCat · 15/06/2024 15:56

marciaa · 14/06/2024 14:00

I don't want "neutral". I want headmasters and headmistresses, actresses etc.

Show quote history

Really? You’d rather have firemen and firewomen than firefighters?

TheAltProfessorAleksSubicofAstonUniversity · 15/06/2024 15:59

This reply has been withdrawn

Post removed by MNHQ while we contact the poster off the boards.

LilyBartsHatShop · 15/06/2024 16:00

@ErrolTheDragon You're right. I've misremembered.
The "-ster" ending is one that was either feminine or neuter. I think it's the only example of that?
(And I also think some linguists say the neuter terms are completely unconnected to the feminine ones, it's just chance that it's the same suffix).
https://www.etymonline.com/word/-ster

-ster | Etymology of suffix -ster by etymonline

"a person who ...") without regard for gender. The genderless agent noun use apparently… See origin and meaning of -ster.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/-ster

ErrolTheDragon · 15/06/2024 16:01

On the other hand, with cats, "cat" is used for both male and female, but if you wanted to specify male you might say "tom-cat". Is there a female equivalent? She-cat, maybe?

Queen! A cat can look at a queen, or be one!

CrossPurposes · 15/06/2024 16:05

RoyalCorgi · 15/06/2024 15:51

We have completely different sexed terms for farm animals, where their sex matters a lot to us. (Cow/bull , ewe/ram, sow/boar etc).

That's a good point, Errol. This stuff is really interesting, and sometimes puzzling. Take dog - "dog" is both the generic term and the term for a male, but if you wanted to refer specifically to a female you'd say "bitch".

On the other hand, with cats, "cat" is used for both male and female, but if you wanted to specify male you might say "tom-cat". Is there a female equivalent? She-cat, maybe?

Dale Spender is very good on all this stuff in Man Made Language. Would really recommend it to those who haven't already read it.

An unneutered female cat is a queen - though my cat retains that epithet despite the op.

Duck is another example of where we specify the male - drake.

TheAltProfessorAleksSubicofAstonUniversity · 15/06/2024 16:51

This reply has been withdrawn

Post removed by MNHQ while we contact the poster off the boards.

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 15/06/2024 16:53

This reply has been deleted

Post removed by MNHQ while we contact the poster off the boards.

I've been repeating 'hamstress' to myself and like the sound of it.

inkymoose · 15/06/2024 16:55

This reply has been deleted

Post removed by MNHQ while we contact the poster off the boards.

Found myself wondering what a female sperm whale is called. After discovering many fascinating facts about sperm whales and their "uses" (making candles, perfume, cosmetics, crayons, pencils, leather waterproofing, machine oil and more) I found that the male is a bull and the female is a cow. Huh.

Otters are called dogs or boars, and female otters are called sows or bitches. Double huh.

In both species, the males tend to lead solitary lives and the females look after the young. The males are larger, massively so in the case of the sperm whale.

Back to actresses. From Ancient Greece to the age of Shakespeare, women were forbidden to tread the boards.

Even when it was legal for them to be on stage (from 1661), actresses did not have the same power or status as their male counterparts and were often treated like prostitutes.

Women came second, despite the fact that there were incredible examples of women who went against convention during the 16th and 17th centuries. Aphra Behn, the first female playwright, was ground-breaking. She was the first Englishwoman known to earn her living by writing.

What's the situation now for women in theatre? Playwrights, technicians, actors (resses) ... How many films are written and directed by women? How many women's roles are written by men ...often evil, twisted, manipulative characters, worse than their male counterparts? Same with TV. Whether you're called an "actress" or not is just one small element in the whole business. But it matters to some. And the Whale is greater than the sum of its Parts.

HidingBehindTheWallpaper · 15/06/2024 16:57

CrossPurposes · 15/06/2024 16:05

An unneutered female cat is a queen - though my cat retains that epithet despite the op.

Duck is another example of where we specify the male - drake.

Show quote history

I guess with a duck the male and female look rather different, unlike with some other animals.

HidingBehindTheWallpaper · 15/06/2024 16:59

Male donkeys are Jacks and females are Jennys.

TheAltProfessorAleksSubicofAstonUniversity · 15/06/2024 17:17

This reply has been withdrawn

Post removed by MNHQ while we contact the poster off the boards.

RoyalCorgi · 15/06/2024 17:18

Queen! A cat can look at a queen, or be one!

I'd forgotten "queen" - but not much used, surely?

Returning to the "seamstress" question, I've discovered that there is a word "seamster", though clearly not used very much:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/seamster

Definition of SEAMSTER

a person employed at sewing; especially : tailor… See the full definition

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/seamster

Kucinghitam · 15/06/2024 17:26

This reply has been deleted

Post removed by MNHQ while we contact the poster off the boards.

Goats are billy and nanny.

As far as I know, all cetaceans are bulls and cows. Possibly this applies to pinnipeds too?

TheAltProfessorAleksSubicofAstonUniversity · 15/06/2024 17:26

This reply has been withdrawn

Post removed by MNHQ while we contact the poster off the boards.

Mumsnet Weekly Hot Threads

Weekly

Sign up to our weekly round up and get all the best threads sent straight to your inbox!

Woman smiling and making heart symbol with her hands

Email address

Log in to update your newsletter preferences.

You've subscribed!

CaveMum · 15/06/2024 17:43

There are many options with horses

Colt - male horse under the age of 4
Gelding - male horse of any age that has been castrated
Rig - male horse of any age with a retained testicle
Horse - entire male horse aged 4+
Stallion - breeding male of any age (usually aged at least 3)

Filly - female horse under the age of 4
Mare - female horse aged 4+
Broodmare - breeding female of any age (usually aged at least 3)

So whilst we use the term “horse” interchangeably, it actually means “mature male horse). If you look at the pedigrees of any Thoroughbred stallion you will see them denoted as “h” with the mares “m” - screenshots attached.

Rob Bryson & Ruth Jones

Rob Bryson & Ruth Jones

OP posts:

IdgieThreadgoodeIsMyHeroine · 15/06/2024 18:47

marciaa · 14/06/2024 14:01

Well if he's a man he a headmaster. If she's female she's a headmistress. Surprised you didn't know that.

Show quote history

You've missed the point of what @ObliviousCoalmine was saying. Headteacher can apply equally well to both men and women, unlike 'actor', which always meant 'male acting professional' until, one day, someone decided it didn't.

Gender neutral words like 'headteacher' (and, indeed, teacher) are important for when it comes to advertising jobs where either sex can fulfil the role.

Flip

1 2 3 4 5 6 ··· 11 12

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.