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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Rob Bryson & Ruth Jones

295 replies

CaveMum · 14/06/2024 13:26

Just listened to the latest episode of Rob Brydon’s podcast where he interviews his long-term friend Ruth Jones.

I thought this exchange at the start was interesting - they know.

Ruth: “It's a lovely intro. Very, very nice. It always makes me interested when people describe me as an actor, because I think of myself as an actress.

Rob: I am being very politically correct.

Ruth: You are, but I always correct people's political correctness when it comes to describing me as an actress.

Rob: I'd rather say actress. I would naturally say actress.

Ruth: Thank you. And it's funny because sometimes I've been introduced or I've read an introduction to something I've been doing and they've called me an actor. I said, oh no, I'm an actress.

And they go, well, no, it's our policy to call you an actor. I go, I know, but I identify as an actress.

Rob: Once you decide to identify, won't be tied anybody who gets, I identify as five foot 10.

Why is that funny? That's what I'm identifying as. How tall am I, Ruth?

Ruth: Oh, maybe you are five foot 10. Are you?

Rob: No, I'm five foot seven. Maybe five foot six and a half now. But I'm identifying as five foot 10.

So I'll ask you again, how tall am I?

Ruth: You're five foot 10.

Rob: Thank you. We're too old for all this, aren't we?

Ruth: Oh, I don't understand it. Anyway, you can't even talk about not understanding anything, can you? You just have to go, I'm old.

I can't hear very well now. So just leave me out of the conversation. Thank you.”

From Brydon &: Ruth Jones, 13 Jun 2024
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/brydon/id1687943454?i=1000658813656
This material may be protected by copyright.

Brydon &: Ruth Jones on Apple Podcasts

‎Brydon &: Ruth Jones on Apple Podcasts

‎Show Brydon &, Ep Ruth Jones - 12 Jun 2024

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/brydon/id1687943454?i=1000658813656

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OP posts:

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TheFallenMadonna · 29/06/2024 08:50

There used to be schoolmasters and schoolmistresses, and a headmaster and a headmistress.
Now there are teachers, and headteachers.

Laidbackguy · 30/06/2024 07:42

ErrolTheDragon · 28/06/2024 18:42

where are the demands for more female labourers on building sites?

An equitable society doesn't mean everyone doing exactly the same things, especially where physical capabilities are concerned - I'm sure you've noticed dimorphism? Men are, on average, better suited to manual labour. OTOH they're 100% useless at the type of labour needed to produce new humans.

So it’s sexism when men win at making it to the upper tiers of management and being entrepreneurial and dimorphism when women don’t want to do it?

Objectively society collapses a lot faster (almost overnight) if you removed men from the world. If you remove women lack of reproduction is the only real issue which doesn’t really become a problem for decades.

Laidbackguy · 30/06/2024 07:52

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 28/06/2024 18:38

Spot on, Datun. These men are so drearily predictable, aren't they. It's like trying to reason with toddlers.

Show quote history

Facts are facts, you can call them predictable if you wish.

Laidbackguy · 30/06/2024 07:53

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 29/06/2024 08:21

My hand size is 7-8. I have a picture somewhere of my hand on top of a 'one size' glove and it's comical, like a small child wearing Mummy's shoes. Any brick laying I tried to do would take forever.

Lots of smaller men work in construction, be a plumber, a joiner, a scaffolder?

Laidbackguy · 30/06/2024 07:57

ErrolTheDragon · 28/06/2024 18:42

where are the demands for more female labourers on building sites?

An equitable society doesn't mean everyone doing exactly the same things, especially where physical capabilities are concerned - I'm sure you've noticed dimorphism? Men are, on average, better suited to manual labour. OTOH they're 100% useless at the type of labour needed to produce new humans.

I notice you entirely skip the equality of conscription in the Ukraine war?

Even if we take your argument that men are more suited to somethings than women. There’s no reason women shouldn’t be conscripted as truck drivers, medics and dozens of other roles that don’t need you to be physically strong to do.

ErrolTheDragon · 30/06/2024 08:25

So it’s sexism when men win at making it to the upper tiers of management and being entrepreneurial and dimorphism when women don’t want to do it?

No, it's sexism when its roles which depend on brains and dimorphism when it's about brawn, to a first approximation - obviously.

Even if we take your argument that men are more suited to somethings than women. There’s no reason women shouldn’t be conscripted as truck drivers, medics and dozens of other roles that don’t need you to be physically strong to do.

Roles women often do occupy in wartime (and more - drone pilots, various navy positions....) and some countries do conscript women. I'm not privy the thought processes of the Ukrainian government. Of course some of the reason for not conscripting women is itself good old sexism...women who want to join the military often face many unnecessary barriers. Surely you realise this? And one of the basic reasons for 'protecting women and children' is longer term survival of your tribe. You're a short term thinker, from some of your other comments.

Underthinker · 30/06/2024 08:32

Laidbackguy · 28/06/2024 08:39

I love women, but I’m quite concerned by the direction society is heading.

I think most men are getting quite weary with the constant blame from some women for all their issues.

We’ve been getting the above from feminist that women now get form the trans community for 40+ years.

Edited

Show quote history

What do you mean by this? I'm a man, I don't feel blamed by women for all their issues. (Or maybe I AM being blamed but my wife was right and I just never listen? )

ErrolTheDragon · 30/06/2024 08:36

What do you mean by this? I'm a man, I don't feel blamed by women for all their issues. (Or maybe I AM being blamed but my wife was right and I just never listen? )

Runningupthecurtains · 30/06/2024 08:58

So it’s sexism when men win at making it to the upper tiers of management and being entrepreneurial and dimorphism when women don’t want to do it?

Ermm no, it sexism when people have access to something blocked (the old school tie network, deals done at the men only club/golf course, oh we can't promote a woman she'll just leave to have babies, women just aren't rational thinkers). It not sexism when there is the option to do something but people choose not to.
The lack of male carers isn't sexism, but it could be argued that the scarsisity of male nursery workers/primary teachers is.

Oh and good luck in your one generation of women free existence 🤣

ErrolTheDragon · 30/06/2024 09:10

Lots of smaller men work in construction, be a plumber, a joiner, a scaffolder?

It'd be certainly good if more girls considered entering some of those trades (add electrician and decorator) , they typically make more money than the alternatives they're pushed towards. I don't think the men's rights types would be at all happy about that.

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 30/06/2024 09:40

Laidbackguy · 30/06/2024 07:53

Lots of smaller men work in construction, be a plumber, a joiner, a scaffolder?

Show quote history

I have a job already, thank you, and have no wish to be a plumber, joiner or scaffolder.

CaveMum · 30/06/2024 10:02

Er, women are not the same as “small men”. This is why we have countless instances of women being unable to get properly fitting PPE for a variety of jobs; why female footballers have a higher % risk of ACL injuries because they wear “small men’s boots” rather than boots designed to fit a female foot; why women are at much higher risk of injury in a car crash because crash test dummies are designed based on the male body.

I’d highly recommend you read Caroline Criado-Perez’s book Invisible Women, and listen to her podcast. She has numerous examples of this.

OP posts:

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/06/2024 10:10

Laidbackguy : I love women. I also think women are small men. I also think women are responsible for taking society in a bad direction

<wanders around bumping into walls>

I'd say get out more, but some people really shouldn't be allowed out on their own

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 30/06/2024 11:43

Tbf I do think society should be more appreciative of those who do the dirty/difficult jobs, whether that be humping wheelie bins about or maintaining sewers (vast majority men) or cleaning hospitals/wiping arses (vast majority women) but yes, women aren’t small men - we are far more prone to joint injury for starters (due to the hormonal processes that make child birth possible, a messy, painful job that can result in long term disability that no man ever does).

No point in forcing a sex equality ratio in scenarios where the vast majority of women will hold the team back and make everyone less safe (eg scaffolding) but for the minority of women who are suited to these roles of course they should be treated equally.

I have no problem with say, the equalisation of the pension age (gripes about the mess they made of implementing it yes, but not the aim of it) but I do worry about the differences at 67 for those who have had a worklife of physical labour and those who spent it sitting at a desk, whether that physical labour be manual handling of the bedbound or laying tarmac. See also things like chemical exposure.

Acknowledging the physical differences between the sexes doesn’t mean shitting on men or devaluing work stereotypically associated with women. I’d rather we all shit on pointless middle management and pointless diversity trainer jobs.

Also: I’ve never understood the conscription argument because in reality in wartime women ARE conscripted, just to different roles to men. My Nan was conscripted to the WAAF sending up barrage balloons to defend cities in the midlands from bombing and my Great Aunt the NAAFI cooking for soldiers on active duty in Italy.

I do wish more young people of both sexes were encouraged into the trades, I’ve learned most skills required for home renovation since becoming a homeowner because it’s nigh on impossible to even get a quote for a domestic job round my way, I would’ve made a brilliant plasterer or tiler but didn’t discover this until after I had two (rather pointless) degrees 😬

Plumbing is harder tho, due to not being able to undo tight things - I once had to ask my friend’s husband to come over and turn off my stopcock. Well annoying.

IIRC grip strength is the most sexually dimorphic strength of all? Jars aren’t a problem because I just use a butter knife to pop the seal. Can’t do that with a stopcock.

ErrolTheDragon · 30/06/2024 12:20

The really bad thing with ppe is when, in a predominantly female profession like nursing, some of it's still designed for the 'default male'.

Yeah, undoing stopcocks etc which have been over tightened by a bloke can be a pain. Sometimes there are ways to (literally) leverage tools... my dd was amused when struggling with a tight bolt in one of her engineering practical classes to be handed the 'girls spanner'... just a spanner but longer.

quantumbutterfly · 30/06/2024 12:51

wrt grip strength, I had excellent grip strength when I cycled everywhere due to brake use. I have used various gripping/leverage tools for undoing things at work and home rather than ask for help. I have shown these techniques to my son whose disability leads to loss of hand strength.
I note that many men I meet get very touchy when you offer to help them but equally touchy when you decline their offers of help, oh well.

Problem solving is a skill that men and women have equal ability for, we may just require different solutions.

My biggest challenge is height, I am small even for a woman and as a lab rat, reaching over and through glassware to reach utility taps, or having to use step-up stools to reach high equipment is my compromise.

I take pp's point about long term chemical exposure in work, this is also something that is a particular risk to woman of childbearing age in the workplace.

inkymoose · 30/06/2024 15:04

'Laidbackguy':

"Objectively society collapses a lot faster (almost overnight) if you removed men from the world. If you remove women lack of reproduction is the only real issue which doesn’t really become a problem for decades."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

If you WHAT?

FleetingSeas · 30/06/2024 15:54

I think no need to engage, folks!

quantumbutterfly · 30/06/2024 16:11

FleetingSeas · 30/06/2024 15:54

I think no need to engage, folks!

indeed

inkymoose · 30/06/2024 16:19

Thanks @FleetingSeas and@quantumbutterfly .

I shall endeavour to disengage.

ErrolTheDragon · 30/06/2024 17:42

My biggest challenge is height, I am small even for a woman and as a lab rat, reaching over and through glassware to reach utility taps, or having to use step-up stools to reach high equipment is my compromise.

Yes... I'd be clambering on lab stools to do titrations. Much happier once I moved into a field where the standard unit of measurement is the ångstrom and the work is mostly in silico

quantumbutterfly · 30/06/2024 17:57

It's a tall persons world.

Runningupthecurtains · 30/06/2024 20:14

quantumbutterfly · 30/06/2024 17:57

It's a tall persons world.

DH would disagree with that. I'm 5'9" so almost average British bloke height and I rarely find things don't work for me (apart from hand things, my hands are very small so I struggle with gloves.) He is 6'5" so often struggles with leg room, head room etc.
We really struggled to find a pushchair that didn't give him backache (thank god for the Dutch) likewise vacuums, lawn mowers etc.

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ErrolTheDragon · 30/06/2024 20:19

One size doesn't fit all.
And on planes I'm glad of being small, though the seat could do with being lower of course.

WickedSerious · 30/06/2024 20:24

inkymoose · 30/06/2024 15:04

'Laidbackguy':

"Objectively society collapses a lot faster (almost overnight) if you removed men from the world. If you remove women lack of reproduction is the only real issue which doesn’t really become a problem for decades."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

If you WHAT?

There'd also be the problem of them wanking themselves into a coma.

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