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mode11

macrumors 65816
Jul 14, 2015
1,395
1,079
London
So first you think Winne the Pooh is banned in China, then when someone shows you it is not the case, you immediately changed your statement.

No longer banned, perhaps, but you can't deny it was - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-china-blog-40627855.

Plus, it wasn't my 'statement', I was making a joke. Just because Winnie the Pooh was un-banned 5 minutes ago (at least according to you), doesn't change the general point i.e. draconian censorship by the world's largest surveillance system (by far).

In the end of the day, Xi is bad. So whatever he does is automatically bad.

I doubt everything he does is bad, but I wouldn't want to live in China.
 

Aoligei

macrumors 65816
Jul 16, 2020
1,064
1,244
'Your online profile'? What does that mean, you can't use WeChat? A minor inconvenience I'm sure.

Well, I said the most. You originally statement was “people will get arrested”.

So they should expect 'consequences' for criticising the president-for-life / dictator?

There is consequences for anything. If you installing the president or purposely sending misleading information, then sure you will get banned or even worse consequences. There are lots of people in China criticizing government for lots of things, you can’t just go internet go insulting people.

Well, that's stupid too.

Well. If you believe in something, you should live with it.

For example: if you truly believe abortion is sin and go public against abortion, then you should bare the consequences being cancelled.
 

Aoligei

macrumors 65816
Jul 16, 2020
1,064
1,244
No longer banned, perhaps, but you can't deny it was - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-china-blog-40627855.

Plus, it wasn't my 'statement', I was making a joke. Just because Winnie the Pooh was un-banned 5 minutes ago (at least according to you), doesn't change the general point i.e. draconian censorship by the world's largest surveillance system (by far).

Yes. Anything BBC is reliable and trustworthy source of news.


And the honor of world largest surveillance state goes to United States of America.
I doubt everything he does is bad, but I wouldn't want to live in China.

You don’t have to. It isn’t like China wants you badly.
 

mode11

macrumors 65816
Jul 14, 2015
1,395
1,079
London
Well, I said the most. You originally statement was “people will get arrested”.

Let's assume for the moment that you wouldn't get arrested (I wouldn't try it personally), being cut off from the 'everything app' would have major consequences for your life. All just for mocking or criticising the leader.

There is consequences for anything. If you installing the president or purposely sending misleading information, then sure you will get banned or even worse consequences.

I assume you mean 'insulting'. This is exactly my point - China is a dictatorship with draconian surveillance.

There are lots of people in China criticizing government for lots of things, you can’t just go internet go insulting people.

You certainly can't in China, no.

Well. If you believe in something, you should live with it.

For example: if you truly believe abortion is sin and go public against abortion, then you should bare the consequences being cancelled.

If you're a celebrity who says things that cause you to lose a lot of their fans, then yes. What isn't OK is a small number of people trying to monopolise the conversation, and trying to cancel people's careers because they don't like their opinions.
 

mode11

macrumors 65816
Jul 14, 2015
1,395
1,079
London
Yes. Anything BBC is reliable and trustworthy source of news.

Let's be clear: are you claiming that at no point has Winnie the Pooh been banned in China, specifically because the authorities don't want him to be used as a covert way of referring to the leader?

And the honor of world largest surveillance state goes to United States of America.

You cannot possibly claim that restrictions on free speech in America are remotely comparable to those in China.
 

Aoligei

macrumors 65816
Jul 16, 2020
1,064
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Let's assume for the moment that you wouldn't get arrested (I wouldn't try it personally), being cut off from the 'everything app' would have major consequences for your life. All just for mocking or criticising the leader.

There is no point to discuss “what if”

I assume you mean 'insulting'. This is exactly my point - China is a dictatorship with draconian surveillance.

Dictatorship or not, if it does help make country progress, then it is fine. CCP is doing fine job right now.

Democracy on other hand, produces leaders like Biden or Trump. And you will soon get Biden vs Trump round #2. Clearly democracy doesn’t produce any good leaders.

Democratic countries are currently more partisan then ever and extreme views on things are more popular than ever. If anything, recent European election is good indication on how divided democratic countries are.

You certainly can't in China, no.

I have lived in China for good 30 years. And all my relatives are in China. I goes back to China frequently.

I saw the progress from 90s to now and I while hearty believe only CCP can lead China and democracy is stupid system.

If you're a celebrity who says things that cause you to lose a lot of their fans, then yes. What isn't OK is a small number of people trying to monopolise the conversation, and trying to cancel people's careers because they don't like their opinions.

Please, anyone who say anything remotely controversial will have risk of being cancelled.
 
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Aoligei

macrumors 65816
Jul 16, 2020
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Let's be clear: are you claiming that at no point has Winnie the Pooh been banned in China, specifically because the authorities don't want him to be used as a covert way of referring to the leader?

Yes.

You cannot possibly claim that restrictions on free speech in America are remotely comparable to those in China.

I would say different countries have different set of standards on what is acceptable or what is not acceptable. You need to respect that.
 

mode11

macrumors 65816
Jul 14, 2015
1,395
1,079
London
There is no point to discuss “what if”

Yes there is - I'm trying to cut through your vague allusions to 'consequences'.

a) Does "your online profile" = access to WeChat? If not, what does it mean?

b) On a scale of 1 - 10, 10 being the most, how significant would losing access to WeChat be, for the average urban Chinese citizen?

Dictatorship or not, if it does help make country progress, then it is fine. CCP is doing fine job right now.

Dictatorships can certainly make a country progress in terms of economy, infrastructure and so on. Mussolini famously got the trains to run on time. But all dictators run out of good ideas at some point, and the trouble is, they never feel like leaving. And due to having an absolute grip on society, they don't have to.

Democracy on other hand, produces leaders like Biden or Trump. And you will soon get Biden vs Trump round #2. Clearly democracy doesn’t produce any good leaders.

No argument with your assessment of Biden or Trump. But it's ridiculous to say that "democracy doesn't produce any good leaders". Winston Churchill? Nelson Mandela? Abraham Lincoln?

Democratic countries are currently more partisan then ever and extreme views on things are more popular than ever. If anything, recent European election is good indication on how divided democratic countries are.

I would hardly say extreme views are "more popular than ever"; they've been pretty popular at other times in the last century (unfortunately). But yes, the world keeps changing and Europeans are currently wrestling with various issues.

I have lived in China for good 30 years. And all my relatives are in China. I goes back to China frequently.

I saw the progress from 90s to now and I while hearty believe only CCP can lead China and democracy is stupid system.

It sounds like state media are doing a good job.

Please, anyone who say anything remotely controversial will have risk of being cancelled.

Perhaps, though the tide may be turning on that one.
 

mode11

macrumors 65816
Jul 14, 2015
1,395
1,079
London

The toys / books themselves might not have been banned, but can you post Winnie the Pooh images on social media (unless you are a toy / book store), even today? I doubt it.

I would say different countries have different set of standards on what is acceptable or what is not acceptable. You need to respect that.

I need to understand it, but don't need to endorse it.

Consider the fact that despite China's massive economic success, they have very little soft power. No one really wants to 'be Chinese' (as in, a citizen of China). Hong Kong films aside, Chinese media doesn't have much international influence, and the majority of what does is based on a fictionalised ancient China, rather than a modern day one.
 

FineWoven

macrumors regular
Sep 18, 2023
151
237
That’s fine. I have more trust in CCP than United States, as I am living in North America.
USA is not all of North America so I'm not sure what this even means. Where you live on the continent is only relevant to the conversation if you're in the US. I don't care if you live in Canada or Mexico because I'm not a citizen in those countries nor do I follow their international relations all that closely. In any case, while the current US government is certainly not without its flaws, at least they don't commit evil atrocities against their own people like the CCP does. We don't imprison anyone for speaking out against those in power or put entire minority groups in hard labor camps against their will, and we enjoy a liberal democracy that allows for duly elected leaders rather than dictators for life.

If you count China as adversary, then that’s also fine. So don’t be surprised that China treat US as adversary. Overall, it is not China started the conflict, it is preciously the United State with Trump Administration.
Of course it's not surprising that they see us as their adversary. They should absolutely see us that way given we are easily the biggest threat to their existence, bigger than probably the next 10 most powerful countries combined. Also you are clearly ignorant of the history of China and America's relationship in recent decades. Trump is just one of many national leaders who have affected that geopolitical balance, for better or worse. You should be more concerned about how some of the other past presidents have handled China while they were in office such as Nixon, Reagan, and Obama. Any of those guys were significantly more influential on US-Chinese relations than Trump ever was.

And don't be ridiculous, China absolutely started the recent tensions or at the very least has been making it worse if for no other reason than because of how they bully and intimidate Taiwan, with whom we share many common ideals including one very important value in particular that I mentioned above which is liberal democracy and human rights. Not to mention the major role Taiwan plays in the global economy because of their robust manufacturing abilities when it comes to supplying most of the world's computer chips. While I can honestly say that I really don't think our government wants to directly engage in an all-out war with China, what I can assure you with the utmost certainty beyond any doubt is that no matter who is in charge of running the United States at the time, if China invades Taiwan or coerces them in any way then the US will come down hard on them like a hammer. Not just the US either, probably most other NATO countries as well which is basically all western European militaries combined plus Canada, India, etc. That's a war the Chinese can't afford to fight; the West would pulverize them and turn the country into an unrecognizable wasteland.

If you think banning TikTok is justifiable, then China banning US social media is also justified. Then don’t criticize China’s censorship. If you think TikTok is national security risk, then Facebook, WhatsApp Instagram are all national security risk to China.
You seem to enjoy making up things I never claimed. I don't think TikTok should be banned. That happens to be the official position of my country's government but it is not my position. All I said was that I personally have no interest in handing over my data to the CCP and that I don't understand why so many of my fellow Americans, including many of my own family and friends, fail to see how deeply problematic that is.

If you think China is evil, then United State is just as evil
LOL
 

Aoligei

macrumors 65816
Jul 16, 2020
1,064
1,244
And don't be ridiculous, China absolutely started the recent tensions or at the very least has been making it worse if for no other reason than because of how they bully and intimidate Taiwan, with whom we share many common ideals including one very important value in particular that I mentioned above which is liberal democracy and human rights. Not to mention the major role Taiwan plays in the global economy because of their robust manufacturing abilities when it comes to supplying most of the world's computer chips. While I can honestly say that I really don't think our government wants to directly engage in an all-out war with China, what I can assure you with the utmost certainty beyond any doubt is that no matter who is in charge of running the United States at the time, if China invades Taiwan or coerces them in any way then the US will come down hard on them like a hammer. Not just the US either, probably most other NATO countries as well which is basically all western European militaries combined plus Canada, India, etc. That's a war the Chinese can't afford to fight; the West would pulverize them and turn the country into an unrecognizable wasteland.

If one thing USA is good at, is provoking war everywhere.

Taiwan has never been a country, nor it will be. For us, any US official visit is provocation. We have right to defend our interest and our territorial integrity, whether US like it or not.

We will absolutely go to war with anyone if Taiwan is in risk of become independent.

Oh by the way, where is US and its allies, when China sent more than 80 fighter jets near Taiwan couple days ago? Where was US and its allies are hiding when Ukraine war started.
 
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Aoligei

macrumors 65816
Jul 16, 2020
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Taiwan is functionally independent of China, with its own army, currency and so on. Keep your hands off it.

You wish.

The best option for Taiwan is keep current status as it is.

This will require a Taiwanese leader not to keep insisting Taiwan is independent. This will also require US not using Taiwan as leverage when dealing with China.

Taiwan as a tiny region will never able to determine their own destiny. It is always power play between China and US.
 
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FineWoven

macrumors regular
Sep 18, 2023
151
237
If one thing USA is good at, is provoking war everywhere.

Taiwan has never been a country, nor it will be. For us, any US official visit is provocation. We have right to defend our interest and our territorial integrity, whether US like it or not.
They have their own flag, government, cultural traditions and dialect. Sounds like a country to me. So I guess our countries will be at war then in the near future. Not sure how closely you follow US politics but it looks all but certain that Trump will be elected president again in November, and you KNOW he won't let China get away with their ******** without facing serious consequences. So I hope for their sake your people are preparing for that now while they still can...

We will absolutely go to war with anyone if Taiwan is in risk of become independent.
That's fine. Our military requires no notice to instantly transition to ruthless war machine even during the quietest of peacetime. Why do you think we keep so many naval destroyers and nuclear subs in every corner of the ocean at all times? :)

Oh by the way, where is US and its allies, when China sent more than 80 fighter jets near Taiwan couple days ago? Where was US and its allies are hiding when Ukraine war started.
This is a joke right? Do you not know we have been sending tens of billions of dollars in assistance to Ukraine since the war began? Plus we've been giving them a lot of our extra weapons because our military has so many that we can literally fight another country's war for them by proxy. And if you think the US didn't see China's cute little stunt with their toy jets then you'd best think again...
 

Aoligei

macrumors 65816
Jul 16, 2020
1,064
1,244
They have their own flag, government, cultural traditions and dialect. Sounds like a country to me. So I guess our countries will be at war then in the near future. Not sure how closely you follow US politics but it looks all but certain that Trump will be elected president again in November, and you KNOW he won't let China get away with their ******** without facing serious consequences. So I hope for their sake your people are preparing for that now while they still can...

I don’t care what you think. Taiwan is not a country period. Even their constitution states Taiwan is part of China. Also check UN, Taiwan is even an observation states. Taiwan maybe as a country as Palestine state.

Trump in all words, won’t send American to war. If you want American to go war with China, you should bid for Biden.

And also, don’t think US won’t go unhurt if war starts.

That's fine. Our military requires no notice to instantly transition to ruthless war machine even during the quietest of peacetime. Why do you think we keep so many naval destroyers and nuclear subs in every corner of the ocean at all times? :)


This is a joke right? Do you not know we have been sending tens of billions of dollars in assistance to Ukraine since the war began? Plus we've been giving them a lot of our extra weapons because our military has so many that we can literally fight another country's war for them by proxy. And if you think the US didn't see China's cute little stunt with their toy jets then you'd best think again...

Yet US hasn’t send any military person into battle ground. Yes, US is too chicken to go direct conflict with Russia.
 
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mode11

macrumors 65816
Jul 14, 2015
1,395
1,079
London
I don’t care what you think. Taiwan is not a country period. Even their constitution states Taiwan is part of China.

They are de facto an independent country, even if China resents it. They contribute nothing to the Chinese economy, they are outside the Great Firewall, and so on. I'm sure Beijing is salty that an economically successful, democratic and open society, full of otherwise culturally Chinese people exists, as it shows a dictatorship isn't the only option. Though admittedly, China has a vast territory to control compared to Taiwan.

Yet US hasn’t send any military person into battle ground. Yes, US is too chicken to go direct conflict with Russia.

Don't be asinine. Getting into a potential nuclear exchange is nothing to take lightly. The US outmatches Russia militarily to such an extent that Russia might panic and do something stupid, if e.g. they had their entire air force wiped out in 24 hours. The Ukraine situation is tragic, but being pragmatic, it makes sense to keep the fight there than risk it spreading into Europe or Russia.
 
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Aoligei

macrumors 65816
Jul 16, 2020
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They are de facto an independent country, even if China resents it. They contribute nothing to the Chinese economy, they are outside the Great Firewall, and so on. I'm sure Beijing is salty that an economically successful, democratic and open society, full of otherwise culturally Chinese people exists, as it shows a dictatorship isn't the only option. Though admittedly, China has a vast territory to control compared to Taiwan.

Still. It doesn’t matter. No matter what you think or Taiwanese think, it is irrelevant. The matter of fact is, it is not up to Taiwan or US, it is up to US.

Don't be asinine. Getting into a potential nuclear exchange is nothing to take lightly. The US outmatches Russia militarily to such an extent that Russia might panic and do something stupid, if e.g. they had their entire air force wiped out in 24 hours. The Ukraine situation is tragic, but being pragmatic, it makes sense to keep the fight there than risk it spreading into Europe or Russia.

You guys can’t even make ships now. Lots of components of your military equipments were made in China.

All of your money were consumed by your corrupt military complex.

US is in its weakest point and it is great for us to attack.
 

Aoligei

macrumors 65816
Jul 16, 2020
1,064
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I’m sure that’d have no consequences for your economy.

I am sure there is. The benefit for taking over Taiwan is greatly outweighed the economical loss.

Taiwan is always important to China militarily wise, economic wise and culturally wise.

After unifications, we can set up military base there. This would enable us to expend outward, also ensure our shipping route freely. This also break the potential blockage from US and its allies.

Secondly, when China adds Taiwan, economical benefits in long term also outweigh potential losses.

Thirdly: it is also important to understand Chinese people wants Taiwan back. When China starts the war, it is with full backing of Chinese people. And anyone who dear to interfere our progress will also be targeted.

I am full Chinese nationalist and fully support our government.
 

Aoligei

macrumors 65816
Jul 16, 2020
1,064
1,244
Yeah, I’d got that.

You might do better to worry about what will happen in a decade’s time, when most of your workforce retires.

Don’t worry.

By then Taiwan is already being unified.
 

Aoligei

macrumors 65816
Jul 16, 2020
1,064
1,244
So you think Xi Jinping was wrong / is lying?

Well Xi never said that day. Curious where did you get that date or you just lying?

By the way:

1) China has already started cancelling most ECFA.
2) Chins is continuing its military exercises around Taiwan strait and is continuing approaching Taiwan’s territorial water.
3) China has already announced the criminal responsibility for these who trying to split Taiwan from China.
4) China is continuing building its naval capabilities.

All point is that the unification process will start sooner than expected.

All the glory to China, all the glory to Chinese people and all glory to CPC.
 
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