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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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'Pregnancy is a choice' 'Pregnancy is not an illness', 'to help the recession we should cut all maternity benefits'

31 replies

Bumperlicious · 08/06/2010 20:01

These are all things that were said on my work newsgroups today (think mumnset, but misogynistic twats).

How do you deal with attitudes like this? I know I shouldn't engage, especially not at work and need to remember that it is not mumsnet, but I couldn't help myself so I just said that I though it was more of a choice to not have children than to have children, and listed all of the numerous symptoms I have been suffering this pregnancy and said tell me now it's not an illness. I also said that maternity rights and sex discrimination laws exists to protect against such attitudes.

I'm just astounded that people would say things like that I am not sure of the best way to respond, bearing in mind this is a corporate system. I know I am just being sensitive because it is so salient for me, but such wankers really get on my nerves. And they won't be reasoned with, they will just carry on with their twatish ways.

My previous boss also tried the whole 'it's your choice to have children' thing. I just think that it is such a crappy thing to say but just can't articulate a response.

OP posts:

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dittany · 08/06/2010 20:04

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

wonderingwondering · 08/06/2010 20:07

It's my choice to have children, who will pay your pension, sweep the roads, keep the economy ticking and care for you when you are infirm etc.

And yes it is my choice to be pregnant, but it is not my choice to be ill or incapacitated for these few short months, just like you don't choose to have flu or break your leg, but these things sometimes happen. Part of being a human being.

And finally - the way you are speaking is discriminatory, ignorant and offensive, and if it continues I shall have to make a formal complaint to senior managers. And do it.

Bumperlicious · 08/06/2010 20:08

I think they think it is ok to have children, just that the government shouldn't be funding it , oh, and probably that woman shouldn't even be working anyway (they didn't say that, but you get the idea).

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dittany · 08/06/2010 20:09

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Bumperlicious · 08/06/2010 20:10

I don't know them (large org) but yes, essentially colleagues, and yes, men. Public sector would you believe?

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EnglandAllenPoe · 08/06/2010 20:12

i think it is very dodgy territory for a workplace discussion!

appearance of discriminatory environment anyone?<

point out that if their GF / wife gets PG, they both have a child, it is only the woman who gets pg though - so to not help out the woman is discriminatory (as both have a child...and only women will ever be PG)

not to mention that ending child poverty is a worthy long term project.

Bumperlicious · 08/06/2010 20:12

I was having a particularly hormonal day too, sobbing in the car on the way to work as a politician talked about cutting library service (DH works in a library on a fixed term contract unlikely to be renewed) so I shouldn't have even taken the bait, I just couldn't let it go!

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fluffles · 08/06/2010 20:14

it is a couple's choice to have children or not but it is NOT a woman's choice to bear those children.

until a family can choose for the father to bear the children then there is no choice.

are the people saying these things fathers? if so, i'm disgusted.

however, i do have some small amount of time for those of either sex who are really serious about giving up the opportunity to have children in order to reduce population growth and working out a way to do this without the economy collapsing.

wonderingwondering · 08/06/2010 20:15

If you are in the public sector you will have some equal opps guidelines and you really ought to ensure they are enforced. Are you a union member? You should be.

There's no way a publicly-funded organisation should be allowed to operate in the sort of environment you describe.

As for drain on public funds - I hope they are as diligent in ensuring they are fully occupied during their working hours (sounds like it if they've got time to have these sorts of discussions....) so as not to 'take from the State' in a unwarranted manner!?

lifeissweet · 08/06/2010 20:16

I would have taken that one on too, I'm afraid. I just think they are completely ignorant and haven't remotely begun to think through what they are saying. I would enjoy rapidly and systematically dismantling their argument. It sounds like the sort of thing certain kinds of men like to say just to wind women up when, actually, they know it's a pile of crap.

Bumperlicious · 08/06/2010 20:16

I will see what gems they have replied with tomorrow and I might just ask for the thread to be pulled. Is it discriminatory?

Pregnancy isn't an illness is it? Though it feels like it. One of the replies after I had listed my symptoms to prove otherwise was 'just because something makes you feel ill does not make it an illness. If I get seasickness I am ill but it is not an illness'. What a stupid point, I so should have argued against it. I already feel bad enough about the burden my pregnancy puts on my company, I have had a lot of time off sick and am on reduced hours. This just makes me feel worse.

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dittany · 08/06/2010 20:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

wonderingwondering · 08/06/2010 20:26

They put all this in writing? Your employer has a legal obligation to act - not only to pull the thread, but to warn people posting on it in those terms, and provide training to ensure they are aware of their legal obligations.

I should confine your response to drawing the attention of your HR dept to the thread with a request that they take appropriate steps as you are offended by the content.

NonnoMum · 08/06/2010 20:26

Bet these sods all gladly accepted their child benefit when they were children (or their parents did on their behalf), enjoyed a free education system, free university education (if they are over 40 ish) and now need to pull it from all the undeserving poor.

Wonder what their wives would say to this? (If any of them are married?)

foreverastudent · 08/06/2010 20:27

'pregnancy is a choice' - No! No! No! when I hear people say this I want to resort to violence.

sex = pregnancy, I wonder how many of your colleagues are virgins?

Do they wish THEIR mothers hadn't 'chosen' to have them?

'pregnancy is not an illness'

-I'm in 2 minds with this one. Pregnancy is comparable to illness in some ways (sickness, immobility, surgery recovery) but unlike it in others (a normal pregnancy is a healthy state of being)

'to help the recession we should cut all maternity benefits'

-do these people understand that maternity benefits are CONTRIBUTION-BASED benefits, people get them because they have paid into the NI system

ImSoNotTelling · 08/06/2010 20:28

I cannot believe that a load of men sat with a pregnant woman and said these things to her!

I mean aside from discrimination etc, what about a bit of bloody tact? What a total bunch of bastard cocks.

As for the attitudes though - pregnancy is a choice and pregnancy is not an illness are things which are often stated on MN. (Usually on threads about seats on teh underground, IME). So not just confined to the men that you work with.

Honestly your workmates are insensitive wankers, even forgetting whether they are talking any sense or not IYSWIM.

ImSoNotTelling · 08/06/2010 20:29

Oh it's an internety work thingy, not a face to face thingy

EnglandAllenPoe · 08/06/2010 20:34

pregnancy related illness can be serious - things can go horribly wrong really fast

some people i know have ended up in hospital for things that (were they not pregnant) they wouldn't even have been likely to take time off for (think UTI getting into kidneys..)

if seasickness was going to cause them to go into premature labour, they'd probably take time off for it too.

sethstarkaddersmum · 08/06/2010 20:36

is this a bulletin board type thing or an instant message thing? If the former then please, please, please keep copies of it all, in case you ever need to prove all this.

I was treated badly by my employer at the end of a pregnancy. I had had similar comments to some of these made to me face to face by various colleagues over the years. If I had had these in writing it would have put me in a stronger position to take some kind of action.

EnglandAllenPoe · 08/06/2010 20:37

i think workplaces need not only to avoid real discrimination, but also the appearance of discrimination. Saying that women don't deserve mat bens has the definite appearance of discrimination (for the reason below - couples have children, only women get PG).

what is their opinion of paternity pay?

LunaticFringe · 08/06/2010 20:37

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NonnoMum · 08/06/2010 20:38

They weren't the public sector sods who did a brainstorm and suggested the Pope should open an abortion clinic, are they? (offensive on SOOOOOO many levels).

Do think you need to take this further at work.

Pregnancy can go swimmingly, but can make you very very ill. (Labour could end up in major surgery etc). Let's not let anyone have free antenatal care and see if our maternal death rates match those of Malawi. Wonder if those women believe that there is no risk in pregnancy?

1100 in 100,000 in Malawi.
7 in 100,000 in UK.

ImSoNotTelling · 08/06/2010 20:44

Or do these blokes want women not to have children? Would that be their preference? How do they think that would work out then?

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LunaticFringe · 08/06/2010 20:48

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EnglandAllenPoe · 08/06/2010 20:50

given that you are pg - the whole thing takes on the appearance of bullying behaviour. it would be like me saying to a colleague on long term sick that i thought we shouldn't have sick bens....

get proof if you want to take this to HR.

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