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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Sexism and Racism - comparable?

56 replies

msrisotto · 07/06/2010 10:57

What the title says really. I have compared some facets of sexism to racism before (on a different forum) and have been shouted down with disgust as the two are not comparable and it is offensive to compare them at all. Do you agree?

I happened to be thinking about weddings and the giving away of the bride and comparing it to slavery of black people back in the day as it is akin to owning people. Was I morally wrong?

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HerBeatitude · 07/06/2010 11:00

Of course they're comparable.

Both are about de-humanising one group because of something they can't change - their sex or colour.

I have never bought the liberal line that racism, homophobia and anti-Semitism are evil while sexism is a bit of a larf, really.

Prolesworth · 07/06/2010 11:01

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FranSanDisco · 07/06/2010 11:12

I feel at its worst sexism is comparable to racism but am amazed that many woman seem to accept they are second class to men due to their sex where they wouldn't accept discrimination on the grounds of their colour/religion.

ImSoNotTelling · 07/06/2010 11:24

Yes of course they are

In some parts of the world females are killed simply for being female, or are still treated as chattels.

ImSoNotTelling · 07/06/2010 11:28

Oh sorry didn't read the OP properly

Yes of course you are right

Women were property and were passed from teh ownership of the father to the husband

No different to slavery

Of course these days the handing over of ownership in the UK is symbolic. It's not symbolic everywhere though. In some places a man still owns his wife/wives. And children of course.

msrisotto · 07/06/2010 11:48

I was told that comparing it to slavery was piss taking and mocking of the hideous suffering of slaves and finally, mocking the genuine oppression of women.

Sigh. This was a woman telling me this btw. Tough crowd!

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HerBeatitude · 07/06/2010 11:48

Have just had a missive from DC's school - an anti bullying and anti racism drive adn they want volunteers for the action group.

No anti sexism drive of course.

ImSoNotTelling · 07/06/2010 12:36

I think it may be easier for people to see that something is "bad" when it is happening to a small minority. Or is happening elsewhere and is totally out of kilter with our society's ideas of what is acceptable.

Prejudice and discrimination against women is so ingrained in our culture that it's just a background noise that people don't notice, especially given that so many poeple are affected, there is no-one on the "outside" to point out what is really going on IYSWIM.

All very sad.

ImSoNotTelling · 07/06/2010 12:37

I think there is an argument that being from a minority group + beign female = double whammy.

MillyR · 07/06/2010 13:12

I think the current situation of racism in our society is that most people have no intention of really challenging the economic and social inequalities between white people and everybody else, almost everyone is agreed that calling people names or attacking them for not being white is wrong. Almost everybody also agrees that there is no real difference between people with different skin pigmentation, although of course they used to believe that white people were innately cleverer and born to lead.

The current situation with sexism is that most people have no intention of really challenging the economic and social inequalities between men and women, and attacking or calling a woman names because she is a woman are not taken very seriously (rape conviction rapes, domestic violence) and many people still believe that being a woman is a real difference beyond sexual organs, and that women are not as clever (Maths, Science) and are not born to lead.

ImSoNotTelling · 07/06/2010 17:09

Totally agree with that millyr

SweetDreamerGirl · 07/06/2010 17:53

msrisotto, very interesting topic, to compare sexism and racism.

At the risk of appearing simplistic (which isn't my intention!), I think it is instructive to imagine a test case, wondering who might get the "worse" deal, e.g. a black man or a white woman? A woman could change her sex to male through gender reassignment, but what could a black man do? Women are very occasionally given the status of "honourary man" e.g. the Queen and Margaret Thatcher on some state occasions in countries where attendance would usually be male only. I can't recall a black man being given "honourary white" status. (Barack Obama is half white and only half black but almost everyone treats him as black). I think all that may point towards it being harder for people to overcome racism than sexism. Does that make one worse than the other? Both are very bad.

Then we have to consider specific cases versus averages, of course.

msrisotto · 07/06/2010 18:16

How is it helpful to trade off who gets the worse deal?

Gender reassignment is as realistic an option as skin bleaching i.e. not really.

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ImSoNotTelling · 07/06/2010 18:21

I am not sure about this comparison either.

Certainly around the world there are plenty of places where black men are in charge - none where women are the bosses.

Also President Obama is the president of america - they have never had a female president.

I also agree that if you really wnated to change from black to white, given time and money you could have a bash at it. And people don't have gender reassignment surgery to escape discrimination (AFAIK) - the fact is that people who have had gender reassignment surgery are, I'm sure, more likely to be discriminated against than either men or women.

harpsichordcarrier · 07/06/2010 18:26

yes, there are obvious parallels. There have been times and places in history when the fight to improve things for one group has supported another, and times when they haven't.
equality is about everyone being treated equally regardless of race, sex, sexuality etc. The examples you give is very relevant - i.e. black people and women have both been treated as chattels in particular circumstances.

dittany · 07/06/2010 18:31

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 08/06/2010 15:38

Several people made this analogy on hread]][[http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/970871-DH-says-I-39-ve-turned-him-into-a-chauvini st this t and I fleshed it out a bit (Tue 25-May-10 14:53:40) with mixed results.

I felt I had to apologise if I had stirred up unpleasant memories for the OP, because who knows what experiences people have had. But I still think it is a valid comparison, as long as you remember that racism is not "over" (and many people deal with it every day), just less socially acceptable than sexism currently.

In the example you mention I think it was a totally fair point.

One reason why I think people find it hard to swallow is that racism is often characterised by segregation - white people on this side of town, black people on that - whereas most households have both men and women living in them, with at least an appearance of co-operation. Having to take on the fact that someone you live with, someone you love, may believe you to be fundamentally sub-human - it must be a hard one to swallow, when there is every practical and emotional reason to try your damnedest to disbelieve it.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 08/06/2010 15:41

sorry that link looks buggered: Several people made this analogy on this thread and I fleshed it out a bit (Tue 25-May-10 14:53:40) with mixed results.
here

swallowedAfly · 09/06/2010 17:34

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swallowedAfly · 09/06/2010 17:36

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ElephantsAndMiasmas · 10/06/2010 16:06

That's interesting swallowedafly - I know there is some controversial history connecting racism and feminism but I don't know what it is because I am fick. God I don't think "black and white women's experiences of the world were so different that their differences through racial experience were greater than their similarities through gender". Not on a domestic level at least - if you're being beaten up by your partner it doesn't usually matter what colour you are, I would think. Socially there are going to be differences, obviously, especially back in the 1970s but even now.

swallowedAfly · 10/06/2010 19:48

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ElephantsAndMiasmas · 12/06/2010 13:13

True enough - sometimes I just can't stretch my mind to take in the many and various torments that sexism/racism have brought to people's lives - one at a time let alone both at once.

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blinder · 12/06/2010 23:31

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HerBeatitude · 13/06/2010 09:04

It is also more acceptable to declare "I am a sexist" than "I am a racist".

Both are about dehumanising one section of humanity, but the latter is greeted with silent discomfort and disapproval, while the former is greeted with mild amusement and cameraderie.

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