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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Why so many female critics of feminism?

145 replies

SweetDreamerGirl · 05/06/2010 17:55

Are female critics against the entire concept of feminism or are they mainly against specific details?

I suspect that some of the anti-feminism-as-a-concept women have bought into the myth that feminists are trying to steal society from men, castrating men into oblivion. Stealing is bad and women should not do such a bad thing. After all, that would be so un-ladylike and un-feminine.

What motivates such a women to support her own discrimination/oppression? They seem determined to stick up for the rights of men who are not currently oppressed but whom they assume would become oppressed in a feminist people-centred (i.e. female AND male-friendly) world. They seem to expect feminism to contiue to make the mistakes of the patriarchal past, with dominance of one group over the other, but they lack evidence for that assertion. Perhaps they also mistakenly equate feminism with lesbianism with all the homophobia that entails? Personally, I equate feminism more with not wanting to be a doormat.

One problem I have with women dismissing feminism-as-a-whole is that it implies to me that men are seen as the legitimate owners of society in the first place. I challenge that and think men do not have legitimate ownership of the "man's world" that we find ourselves inhabiting.

I have respect for some women who are against specific "policy details" of feminism - it's a fair political/operational difference of opinion. Perhaps these women are not actually anti-feminist, merely unwilling to call themselves feminists.

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foreverastudent · 06/06/2010 08:40

I think there are some women who have been fortunate enough to only have known 'nice' men. In their experience feminism supposed labelling of men as 'bad' (which I dont agree it does)doesnt match their experiences.

In other cases, even when women have been 'victims' of discrimination/abuse many are very unwilling to put a gender label on it. I've seen this at work where women dont recognise that the hard time they are being given is because of their sex.

Also every rapist, murderer, abuser, mysogynist is some mother's son. Whose side are they on then?

I also think that there is a cultural element in that we have an individualistic society. Individuals are blamed for problems not society. There is a general reluctance to connect wider social patterns with individual misfortunes. eg unequal pay - economic dependence - domestic violence.

Prolesworth · 06/06/2010 09:47

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Ryoko · 06/06/2010 10:43

I think some see feminism as only the fanatics with a chip on both shoulders (you know the ones) and don't want to be associated with that.

the word itself tends to bring images of hunger strikes, bra burning and window smashing to mind, many people are more aware of what the suffrage movement did then how women where treated at the time.

Sakura · 07/06/2010 05:18

Ryoko, I think I'D describe myself as a fanatic with a chip on both shoulders when it comes to the unfairness I see everywhere.

Really good point SweetDreamerGirl.
I think it was tethersend who said on another thread: "most women don'T like feminism because men don't like feminism" . I think there's a lot of truth in this.

Women are very quick to see unfairness when it's men at the receiving end, because women at the receiving end is the status quo. So when something unfair happens to a man it appears to be doubly bad. And if that thing has taken place as at the hands of a woman then it is seen as being quadrupley bad. When a woman experiences unfairness, however, that's just to be expected.

dittany · 07/06/2010 08:41

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threelittlepebbles · 07/06/2010 09:38

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Prolesworth · 07/06/2010 10:13

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threelittlepebbles · 07/06/2010 11:08

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Sakura · 07/06/2010 11:48

Yes, I like the sound of that Prolesworth; the 'currying favour' strategy.
There is a dire lack of appropriate language when it comes to feminism and even other female concerns such as being a mother.
I read that there are an infinite amount of words to describe what a mother does badly from neglect to suffocation, but only a few odd words to describe "giving just the right amount of love and mothering okay". 'Good enough parenting' was a good phrase but it's a bit weak compared to all the negatives that are thrown at mothers.

BelleDameSansMerci · 07/06/2010 11:57

I think many women who are critical of feminism have no idea what things were like before feminism. They take all sorts of things for granted and do not consider the women who worked so hard to change things. Or perhaps they do know but don't give a stuff?

I also think that being a feminist means taking full responsibility for yourself and there are plenty of women who seem to like living a childlike existence under a man's control.

Rant, rant...

MillyR · 07/06/2010 12:10

I think that while many women are in agreement about issues such as domestic violence and equality in the workplace, there are some issues that are pushed by feminism that are very controversial. These come up time and time again on MN.

The first of these is women's sexuality. Feminism can often seem opposed to women displaying their sexuality. This seems quite a complex problem as it involves attempting to draw lines between the sex industry, narrow constraints on what society considers appropriate for women's sexuality, and how women can be sexual outside of those constraints but still be seen as more than just sexual.

The second problem is SAHMs, who feel that many feminists judge them. Also many women (either working or not) who are in an unequal relationship are going to feel that they cannot say they are feminists while not having the strength to get out of, or change, a sexist relationship.

So essentially if you are a woman and want to be a sexual person or stay at home with your children, you may find feminism difficult. That is a lot of women.

Prolesworth · 07/06/2010 12:23

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MillyR · 07/06/2010 12:34

Prolesworth, can you think of examples of heterosexual women sexually expressing themselves in the public sphere that many feminists would find acceptable?

I do think feminism is difficult. And it should be. A lot of sexism is internalised and feminism challenges that. It is hard for people to challenge the values they have been brought up with, and many people are not going to want to challenge themselves in that way.

posieparker · 07/06/2010 12:40

Many feminists present themselves in an obtuse fashion. Sweeping generalisations, often discriminatory, against men make people think feminists are the female equivalent of a misogynist. Feminism also allows itself to partner Islam, Catholicism or any other patriarchal religion that has followers that believe the two ideals have any place together.
Feminists seem to want to deny any difference between men and women and therefore lose before the fight has begun.

Prolesworth · 07/06/2010 12:45

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ImSoNotTelling · 07/06/2010 12:47

millyR have you ever read any of SGBs posts?

MillyR · 07/06/2010 12:52

I think that is why we could do with more radical feminism coming into the mainstream (although I can't see it happening). I don't think that being critical of misogyny is enough. I think people are looking for alternatives to the current society.

This is I think where the 'I don't want to be a man' sentiment comes from. It isn't women saying that they don't want to know how to fix a car or don't want to be a brain surgeon. It is about women wanting a culture that is different, and different ways we can express ourselves as people.

ImSoNotTelling · 07/06/2010 12:52

PP you don't half talk a lot of rubbish sometimes.

You are saying what you think feminists think.

But read any of the threads on here and there are a range of opinions and ideas.

The attemps to say "this is what a feminist thinks" and thus "I totally disagree" is narrow.

Loads of feminists accept that there are broadly differences between men and women (differences on average, maybe). The feminist part comes in noting that things which are "averagely female" and less appreciated, acknowledged, well paid etc as "averagely female" things.

You are taking one idea and generalising it across all feminists, which is ridiculous.

ImSoNotTelling · 07/06/2010 12:54

Bollocks typing shit and sentance cam ou wrong

try again

"Loads of feminists accept that there are broadly differences between men and women (differences on average, maybe). The feminist part comes in noting that things which are "averagely female" are less appreciated, acknowledged, well paid etc as "averagely male" things."

Prolesworth · 07/06/2010 12:54

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ImSoNotTelling · 07/06/2010 12:55

But yes I want a revolution too.

Change teh whole structure of society and way the money and everything works. Sounds good to me.

MillyR · 07/06/2010 12:57

I have read SGBs posts, and I don't agree with her. I don't agree with pornography, and have argued with her many times on this issue.

But there is a difference between pornography and sexual expression, and I don't see feminism addressing that. But the narrow constraints that are being put on women in terms of sexual expression by mainstream society and the sex industry are a huge problem, and I don't see there being an alternative to that being effectively put forward by any group. There has to be an answer found between porn and nothing.

ImSoNotTelling · 07/06/2010 13:01

I was thinking more of some of her other activites.

She is open and straightforward about her sexuality, and what she chooses to do in her spare time, and why not.

She is also a feminist.

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tortoiseonthehalfshell · 07/06/2010 13:03

i always find it odd, the "i've only known feminists who are horrible and therefore I don't want to be a feminist" thing.

I know, and know of, loads of Christians who are fanatics, whose opinions or behaviour are offensive, who make sweeping generalisations, etc. In fact, the more public the persona, the more likely this is - I'm thinking about the Fred Phelps' of the world. But if I believed in God, I'd still believe in God, you know? I imagine most religious people would agree with that; they're able to dissociate themselves from those who do or say evil in religion's name, and see no problem with that.

I don't understand why one's own beliefs are so dependent on other people being nice.

Prolesworth · 07/06/2010 13:08

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