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Prescribing of Testosterone for middle aged women out of control The Guardian

74 replies

Runskiyoga · 05/07/2024 21:09

Experts warn of long term health implications. As in prescribing being ahead of or outside the available evidence. I wonder if they know about the young women 😞www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/jul/05/prescribing-of-testosterone-for-middle-aged-women-out-of-control?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

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tackytriceratops · 07/07/2024 16:16

I have no doubt that strength training is helpful but it’s really bloody hard to get started if one of your first/worst perimeno symptoms are joint related!

Yes 100%

I had to ditch the hrt because of the cancer. And all I had then was a cancer book and Liz o riordan telling me I must exercise. I followed the cancer exercise book which was a really well paced every other day simple work out. It wasn't heavy or taxing, you have to walk fast for half an hour daily too. I followed it to the T along side what that book said about protein. 30g each meal (too much for me really.)

I then moved on to Sim's advice which is eating within half an hour of a work out as I slowly increased the weights up. I was doing some other bits here and there like swimming. Star jumps here and there. Planks. Down ward dog. I couldn't run as my joints and feet were too bad. But I can now! I haven't got into that but am intending to in the next few months.

And with no hrt. Periods seem to be stopping; I now get one every 40-50 days.

I had very bad arthralgia with peri. Hrt helped a bit but not always. The walking (which I did far more of than the book said) and lifting seemed to build strength across my whole body.

It wasn't over night though. Took months to slowly build up.

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XChrome · 07/07/2024 16:19

123letsblaze · 07/07/2024 10:45

I don't think it should be given to anyone, young or old unless it's known to be safe. Hair loss and spots just because it might make you fancy sex? No thanks. No one knows the long term effects of supplementation either. Isn't menopause just another stage of life, not an illness?

In some women the symptoms can be so severe that it's effectively the same as an illness. Some can't live a normal life because of the symptoms.

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DworkinWasRight · 07/07/2024 17:06

Interesting article on the effects of testosterone on East German athletes:

History’s most ruthless doping programme — and the women who paid the price

www.thetimes.com/article/f83073e2-3057-4ba5-ad02-30bb644e6acb?shareToken=aad9b63160d4ed48881a6e614e2866cd

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Truthlikeness · 07/07/2024 18:33

123letsblaze · 07/07/2024 10:45

I don't think it should be given to anyone, young or old unless it's known to be safe. Hair loss and spots just because it might make you fancy sex? No thanks. No one knows the long term effects of supplementation either. Isn't menopause just another stage of life, not an illness?

Well, my asthma is also natural, I guess, but I sure do appreciate the unnatural drugs that helped me to breathe.

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RoyalCorgi · 07/07/2024 19:07

123letsblaze · 07/07/2024 10:45

I don't think it should be given to anyone, young or old unless it's known to be safe. Hair loss and spots just because it might make you fancy sex? No thanks. No one knows the long term effects of supplementation either. Isn't menopause just another stage of life, not an illness?

Menopause is indeed a stage of life. It's a stage of life that results in a significant loss of bone density (because of the depletion of oestrogen) and therefore leads to roughly 11,000 women a year dying from hip fractures caused by osteoporosis.

So it doesn't matter whether you call it an illness or not, it still leads to women dying unnecessarily.

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UtilitarianNameChange · 07/07/2024 20:41

Leaving aside the hormones in the environment and thinking about hormones we deliberately injected, I do idly wonder if perimenopause/menopause is, on average, objectively different for women who have had 5-30 years worth of hormonal birth control/taken specific types of synthetic hormones as BC?

My mum went on the (early form of combined?) pill when she got married in ‘68 age 18, I was on depo provera (synthetic progestin) the same age 25 years later.
My maternal gran didn’t have BC or HRT because it just wasn’t a thing when she was in those life stages (she did have a 20+ year co proxamol addiction unquestionably facilitated by her GP tho, so that’s a variable that I wouldn’t want to replicate!)

I’d love to be able to ask them about their experiences but sadly, the nature of middle age/menopause makes comparing notes with grandma unlikely if not impossible (unlike menarche, when mum & gran are often still around).

Probably won’t be any official answers in my lifetime (if the pharmaceutical industry aren’t even motivated to get testosterone licensed for women and into small-dose dispense containers!)

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LoremIpsumCici · 10/07/2024 12:02

TheSh0ppingForecast · 06/07/2024 17:13

Most hormonal supplementation is in response to our own self poisoning and poor lifestyle, or societal conditioning rather than in anyway necessary.

Umm...pretty sure my crippling monthly migraines are a result of changes in the levels of oestrogen and progesterone in my body due to reaching the end of my fertile years, not my "own self poisoning."

Are you taking or have you ever taken hormonal birth control?

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Anonym00se · 10/07/2024 12:10

LoremIpsumCici · 10/07/2024 12:02

Are you taking or have you ever taken hormonal birth control?

Show quote history

I didn’t. I’m progesterone intolerant and couldn’t take oestrogen based contraceptives due to migraine. The migraines were bad in perimenopause, but now post-menopausal and the migraines are worse than ever. It used to be a few days once a month, now they’re constant.

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LoremIpsumCici · 10/07/2024 12:24

Anonym00se · 10/07/2024 12:10

I didn’t. I’m progesterone intolerant and couldn’t take oestrogen based contraceptives due to migraine. The migraines were bad in perimenopause, but now post-menopausal and the migraines are worse than ever. It used to be a few days once a month, now they’re constant.

Show quote history

So, help me understand:

”Most hormonal supplementation is in response to our own self poisoning and poor lifestyle, or societal conditioning rather than in anyway necessary.“

You were born with progesterone intolerance, which caused you to have hormone related migraines throughout your life, worsening with menopause.

Isn’t this irrelevant to the above comment as you don’t and cannot ever take any hormonal supplements?

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AmaryllisNightAndDay · 10/07/2024 12:27

And there I was, thinking it was the prescription of mega-doses of testosterone to young women who demand it due to advice they've read on social media that was really out of control.

Well silly me.

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Anonym00se · 10/07/2024 12:34

LoremIpsumCici · 10/07/2024 12:24

So, help me understand:

”Most hormonal supplementation is in response to our own self poisoning and poor lifestyle, or societal conditioning rather than in anyway necessary.“

You were born with progesterone intolerance, which caused you to have hormone related migraines throughout your life, worsening with menopause.

Isn’t this irrelevant to the above comment as you don’t and cannot ever take any hormonal supplements?

Show quote history

No, the progesterone intolerance didn’t cause the migraines. Synthetic progesterone makes me very depressed and anxious. I couldn’t take the oestrogen only pill because I have a history of migraine. It wasn’t an issue as ExH had a vasectomy in our early 20s, and my now DH had had had a vasectomy when we met. I was merely making the point that I had never “poisoned myself” with hormones so the current hormonal problems I have cannot be attributed to that. Women should not be blamed to menopause difficulties, especially by other women.

ETA: I am actually now on a very carefully managed HRT regime, but there’s a fine line between very low oestrogen (and constant migraine) and high oestrogen (same problem).

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LoremIpsumCici · 10/07/2024 12:38

Anonym00se · 10/07/2024 12:34

No, the progesterone intolerance didn’t cause the migraines. Synthetic progesterone makes me very depressed and anxious. I couldn’t take the oestrogen only pill because I have a history of migraine. It wasn’t an issue as ExH had a vasectomy in our early 20s, and my now DH had had had a vasectomy when we met. I was merely making the point that I had never “poisoned myself” with hormones so the current hormonal problems I have cannot be attributed to that. Women should not be blamed to menopause difficulties, especially by other women.

ETA: I am actually now on a very carefully managed HRT regime, but there’s a fine line between very low oestrogen (and constant migraine) and high oestrogen (same problem).

Edited
Show quote history

Oh, got it! Thank you for explaining. I see your point now & agree with it.

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SoundTheSirens · 10/07/2024 12:45

tackytriceratops · 07/07/2024 08:49

I had it before breast cancer diagnosis and had to come off everything, (though one consultant said it's how they used to treat bc?!)

It did work. I only needed a half dose. It went to high, libido was actually unpleasantly high and my hair fell out. (It did recover)

Women MUST be within female range and tested regularly.


However, I've since learnt about the impact of building lean muscle mass. Same consultant agreed that me doing this would impact my testosterone levels. And I do now feel the same confidence that I had while I was on testosterone, despite taking tamoxifen.

Lean muscle mass / resistance training and more protein and the right sort of carbs at the right time to help build muscles, is also thought to reduce hot sweats. I'm finding it does work for me.

Could you point me to some easy-to-follow-with-brain-fog workouts, or somewhere I can get more information about the stuff in your last paragraph? I haven't seen any particular benefits with HRT personally, so looking for an alternative approach.

ETA: I've now RTFT and seen your responses to others already expanding on this, thank you.

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Omlettes · 11/07/2024 20:05

TheSh0ppingForecast · 06/07/2024 17:13

Most hormonal supplementation is in response to our own self poisoning and poor lifestyle, or societal conditioning rather than in anyway necessary.

Umm...pretty sure my crippling monthly migraines are a result of changes in the levels of oestrogen and progesterone in my body due to reaching the end of my fertile years, not my "own self poisoning."

I'm sure you noted I said most.
A word that infers, not all.
Furthemore, most hormone issues in women are affected by diet and toxic overload of the liver. Which is why pmt perimenopause menopause are so affected by diet, sugar alcohol bad fats excess carbs poisons plastics etc
Its the concept of mind /body separation [the basis of trans ideology] and over specialisation that allows us to think that a symptom is only localised and separate from our habits.

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JellySaurus · 11/07/2024 20:57

Furthemore, most hormone issues in women are affected by diet and toxic overload of the liver. Which is why pmt perimenopause menopause are so affected by diet, sugar alcohol bad fats excess carbs poisons plastics etc
Its the concept of mind /body separation [the basis of trans ideology] and over specialisation that allows us to think that a symptom is only localised and separate from our habits.

The word menopause, and connecting the symptoms with periods and fertility ending, predates HRT by over 100y. Predates the Industrial Revolution. Predates trans ideology.

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TheSh0ppingForecast · 11/07/2024 20:57

Omlettes · 11/07/2024 20:05

I'm sure you noted I said most.
A word that infers, not all.
Furthemore, most hormone issues in women are affected by diet and toxic overload of the liver. Which is why pmt perimenopause menopause are so affected by diet, sugar alcohol bad fats excess carbs poisons plastics etc
Its the concept of mind /body separation [the basis of trans ideology] and over specialisation that allows us to think that a symptom is only localised and separate from our habits.

Show quote history

I did indeed note your use of the word "most" Hmm but I'm not sure it makes a huge difference here tbh. I think we can all grasp the concept of a healthy lifestyle and all its benefits, but the perimenopause is the result of the female body nearing the end of its fertile years.

I still think that your assertion that Most hormonal supplementation is in response to our own self poisoning and poor lifestyle, or societal conditioning rather than in anyway necessary

...is utter tosh.

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Omlettes · 11/07/2024 22:38

TheSh0ppingForecast · 11/07/2024 20:57

I did indeed note your use of the word "most" Hmm but I'm not sure it makes a huge difference here tbh. I think we can all grasp the concept of a healthy lifestyle and all its benefits, but the perimenopause is the result of the female body nearing the end of its fertile years.

I still think that your assertion that Most hormonal supplementation is in response to our own self poisoning and poor lifestyle, or societal conditioning rather than in anyway necessary

...is utter tosh.

Show quote history

As I do about your ignorant and rude dismissal.
Meanwhile Japanese women have far less if any menopausal symptoms certainly until they adopted a western diet.
Nor is it seen as a situation that needs medicalising but a time of freedom and rejuvenation.
And currently we are all poisoned by forever chemicals, pesticides and micro plastics - or do you imagine you are immune?

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XChrome · 11/07/2024 23:01

Omlettes · 11/07/2024 22:38

As I do about your ignorant and rude dismissal.
Meanwhile Japanese women have far less if any menopausal symptoms certainly until they adopted a western diet.
Nor is it seen as a situation that needs medicalising but a time of freedom and rejuvenation.
And currently we are all poisoned by forever chemicals, pesticides and micro plastics - or do you imagine you are immune?

Show quote history

That's been attributed to a high intake of soy, which contains plant estrogens which mimic human estrogen. So in effect, Japanese women are on HRT.
However, you are right in that these things you mention are factors.

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LoremIpsumCici · 14/07/2024 20:43

XChrome · 11/07/2024 23:01

That's been attributed to a high intake of soy, which contains plant estrogens which mimic human estrogen. So in effect, Japanese women are on HRT.
However, you are right in that these things you mention are factors.

Show quote history

Physiologically, eating phytoestrogens is not similar to taking pharmaceutical grade estrogen and progesterone. So, no everyone (men, women and children) who eat soy are not “in effect” on HRT. 🫤

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IwantToRetire · 15/07/2024 01:08

Interesting thread. But have no personal experience to contribut.

But just to say I started reading it because I thought is was about middle aged women who are "out of control" being drugged.

When I could think was where can I meet these women?

Or is that the role of FWR?

Confused

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XChrome · 15/07/2024 03:15

LoremIpsumCici · 14/07/2024 20:43

Physiologically, eating phytoestrogens is not similar to taking pharmaceutical grade estrogen and progesterone. So, no everyone (men, women and children) who eat soy are not “in effect” on HRT. 🫤

Show quote history

Actually, estrogen receptors treat them as if they are estrogen. However, since the body can't absorb them well, it takes a very high intake to see any effect.

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tackytriceratops · 16/07/2024 07:24

@SoundTheSirens can also thoroughly recommend the Fitr woman app which is free and uses sports science info.

I've hit a fatigue wall after a period. I logged the symptoms and activity I've done over the last few days and it gave me firm instructions on how I should have been eating (I know I didn't eat well for what I was doing - I pushed myself) and several recipes. It reminded me to eat a decent amount of carbs and protein before and after a heavy session which I didn't do.

Also Katie Rowe Ham's book, a 30 day resistance training plan which has qr codes to videos and sets it all out very clearly.

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Sloejelly · 16/07/2024 09:00

‘Menopause is just a life stage’ is the same patriarchal claptrap that dismisses women’s health issues as being hysterical, denies women adequate pain relief and means women’s health is under researched. The same which has women suffering for years from endometriosis or dysmenorrhea. The same which fails to listen to women in labour and causes hundreds of thousands of birth injuries every year.

It is simply another dismissal of women.

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LoremIpsumCici · 16/07/2024 10:47

XChrome · 15/07/2024 03:15

Actually, estrogen receptors treat them as if they are estrogen. However, since the body can't absorb them well, it takes a very high intake to see any effect.

Show quote history

Depends, some phytoestrogens, soy included, can block estrogen receptors and have an anti-estrogenic effect. It’s pretty much a myth that soy acts like estrogen and eating soy is being “effectively on HRT”

Dairy products provide us with far more dietary estrogen intake and no one would say drink a glass of milk- there’s your HRT.

https://www.zmescience.com/feature-post/health/food-and-nutrition/debunking-the-soy-estrogen-problem-and-other-soy-myths/

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