Neil Gaiman accused of sexual assault

Yes, and/or, to add another layer to the many layers of head fucks: they may be distraught/suicidal/so contrite and guilt-wracked about their abuse that YOU end up comforting them. They admit it, hate themselves for it, and can't help doing it again ...

I don’t know about this... Maybe it’s true for some people, but it wasn’t true for me. I was subjected to coercive control when I was in my late teens/early twenties and while I struggled to understand and come to terms with what happened to me, it had nothing to do with not wanting to admit that I’d been victimized. It was more that I didn’t believe anyone else would see it that way. I believed that since I’d consented (albeit under duress) it therefore couldn’t be rape and if I told anyone, no one would believe me (part of me still thinks that about my own situation). I knew it was wrong. I knew I didn’t want it, but he preyed on my insecurities and twisted my head around until I agreed to it. I didn’t feel anyone would believe me because I said yes and agreed to it.

Yes this is more similar to my own experience and I was about the same age as you.

I remember begging a man I was seeing to take me back. I told him I couldn't live without him, I loved him, etc etc. He had been abusing and sexually assaulting me, but it was 'love' and attention so it didn't matter. I was willing to accept those parts of the relationship in order to have the relationship.

If I'd gone to the police to report him for the crimes he committed against me, I'd have got nowhere. I'd sent him emails about how much I loved him and would do anything for him. I'd literally begged him to stay with me.

I really related to Scarlett in the podcast - that feeling of just wanting to be loved and to belong, wanting it so much that you'll accept any kind of treatment, really. She was so vulnerable (and so was I).

Abusers are really, really good at picking out their victims. I think it's the 'shit test' they do at the beginning. Like NG getting into the bath with Scarlett. It's an outrageous thing to do, and someone older, or someone with self-respect and boundaries would never tolerate it. Because Scarlett did, NG knew he could do anything to her from that moment on. It exposed her as deeply vulnerable and he was able to exploit that vulnerability for his own purposes.

Abusers are really, really good at picking out their victims. I think it's the 'shit test' they do at the beginning. Like NG getting into the bath with Scarlett. It's an outrageous thing to do, and someone older, or someone with self-respect and boundaries would never tolerate it. Because Scarlett did, NG knew he could do anything to her from that moment on. It exposed her as deeply vulnerable and he was able to exploit that vulnerability for his own purposes.

Completely agree

If you read "The Gift of Fear" the key thing is increasing boundary violations. Each one makes it harder and less likely that the victim will say no to the next. We were right to see Gaiman's disrespect for women's boundaries as a red flag and the same applies to all the men who do.

this thread is really disturbing in different ways. I appreciate pps sharing their experiences, thank you.

It also makes the victim more difficult to sympathise with. Anyone with 'normal' boundaries will say, why the fuck did you not just get out of the bath? Why didn't you tell him to fuck off? Why didn't you call the police? Because those are the things they (think they) would have done faced with that situation. So when the abuser does this, they're simultaneously creating the conditions whereby their victim is going to be difficult to believe. And so they make them complicit: "no one else would understand how it is between us," "I've never done anything like that before," etc.

The fact that Scarlett messaged NG the next day saying, wow, what a night, made perfect sense to me. He coached her to frame it as a 'normal' experience and she was complying with that. I don't mean he told her to say that. I mean the psychological dynamic was that he is the one who gets to set the standard for normal, and Scarlett's response is a kind of psychological self defence. The victim immediately abandons herself, which has the effect of making her believe she's not a victim, and also creates a dissociation which makes subsequent abuse easier to tolerate.

Yes. Also, it's so outrageous that it concomitantly suggests it will be very high risk to protest. How will this man, who has just signalled his disregard for all boundaries, social conventions and respect, respond to being defied? Will he be violent?

A much older man who has just employed you, holds all the power physically, economically, and socially, performs an obviously deliberately shocking and destabilising boundary tearing- down act.

It's far safer to go along with it than to react negatively. Most women would grasp that risk immediately. And this woman was very young. She must have been terrified. And trapped.

I think it's also a case of her making it OK in her own head. He is OK with it - he's so cool! - and therefore she must be wrong for doubting it on any level, and if it was wrong then what situation has she got herself into? It's the fawning instinct at work I think. The fact that she wasn't paid is also very telling - he was making her dependent on him and making it harder for her to leave.

Oh, yes. Far easier for a woman to just add another kilo of self doubt to the many she has been given since childhood than to question the edifice that is god-worship of a successful man.

It's far safer to go along with it than to react negatively. Most women would grasp that risk immediately. And this woman was very young. She must have been terrified. And trapped.

Yes. And also it gives him plausible deniability. He can say, well, obviously I would never have done that if I hadn't thought she was into it. It's not the kind of thing you would do with someone who hadn't signalled that they wanted it too. This works on both the victim and anyone who is questioning the abuser. The victim is gaslit into thinking they must have somehow given a signal that they were into it, and observers are like, well of course - NG is a lovely guy, obviously he wouldn't do something like that unless he thought there was consent for it.

He'd asked her if she wanted to have a bath - obviously she assumed this meant her having a bath alone. And he knows that. But he also knows that she can look back on that question and wonder if she misheard it, or if she missed the fact that he was asking for a bath together. So now, he can say, well of course I asked her and she agreed. And that's true - except it's completely untrue.

The man I was in an abusive relationship with in my 20s was nowhere near as smart as NG and he managed to absolutely mess my head up. I can't imagine how anyone as young, inexperienced, and vulnerable as Scarlett could defend herself against NG. He knew exactly what he was doing.

and thanks for the personal stories shared here. It has really helped me understand better and think about this differently

consent was completely irrelevant. A rich and famous 61 year old initiating sex with a 20 year old employee is always exploitation and coercive

I didn't know about Marion Zimmer Bradley, shocked and sad about that.

Not shocked about NG, and I liked some of his books.

@ArabellaScott and also the headfuck of how whenever you try to assert a boundary or protest they way they’re treating you, they get so annoyed that you end up having to apologise to them.

@taylorswift1989 I remember begging a man I was seeing to take me back. I told him I couldn't live without him, I loved him, etc etc. He had been abusing and sexually assaulting me, but it was 'love' and attention so it didn't matter. I was willing to accept those parts of the relationship in order to have the relationship. 

[…]

I really related to Scarlett in the podcast - that feeling of just wanting to be loved and to belong, wanting it so much that you'll accept any kind of treatment, really. She was so vulnerable (and so was I).

Yes, all of this. There were so many nights where I’d been shouted at and subjected to monologues on everything that was wrong with me to the point I’d be almost vomiting from crying. I remember feeling like the only person who could make me feel better was the abuser. And after a period of punishment from them, such as disappearing for several days or days of silent treatment, and me begging for them to come back or to speak to me, they would. In a, ‘Come here, what are we going to do with you eh?’ kind of way, and I’d be so relieved that I instantly forgot about what had happened (until the next time).

I think women who don’t have or haven’t had the love and care in their lives that they should have done are particularly vulnerable to the attention of these men and vulnerable to developing some sort of inexplicable trauma attachment.

I think women who don’t have or haven’t had the love and care in their lives that they should have done are particularly vulnerable to the attention of these men and vulnerable to developing some sort of inexplicable trauma attachment.

YY definitely. Also, as a pp said, these relationships seem to be more meaningful and intense than what might seem humdrum and ordinary, particularly to more vulnerable people. The abuser controls the narrative though.

I think women who don’t have or haven’t had the love and care in their lives that they should have done are particularly vulnerable to the attention of these men and vulnerable to developing some sort of inexplicable trauma attachment.

Yes. Like Scarlett, being estranged from her parents at such a young age. Wanting to be part of Amanda and Neil's family. Just wanting to be loved and to belong.

Just thinking about how when Scarlett was suicidal, NG claimed to also be suicidal. He couldn't let her have any feelings that were entirely her own. I think this kind of abusive man wants to have absolute power over his victim.

I wonder how Neil and Amanda got together. Clearly both abusive people in different ways - I assume they each thought the other was going to be their victim. I guess it suited them both, publicity-wise, too. But god, what a mess. I appreciate that the podcast left their son out of it for the most part, but he is also being horribly psychologically abused.

God, I don't know about anyone else, but listening to the podcast really made me anxious and stressed. It makes me feel sick that NG has been getting away with this for so long.

Yes. Like Scarlett, being estranged from her parents at such a young age.

I haven’t listened to the podcast yet but I thought this would be the case. I was estranged from my mum and my dad had just died. I was young, vulnerable and had no one, so was the perfect kind of victim. I didn’t have a clue what a healthy relationship looked like.

How can we protect women from this? What do teens learn about relationships in school these days? I feel like every vulnerable young woman should be offered a version of the Freedom Programme as standard.

How did they justify not paying Scarlett? If she didn’t have many alternatives to staying without money that’s getting a bit close to modern slavery for comfort

How can we protect women from this? What do teens learn about relationships in school these days? I feel like every vulnerable young woman should be offered a version of the Freedom Programme as standard.

That's not a bad idea, to kind of set standards for relationships more globally, be able to recognise red flags and so on. But for really vulnerable girls, I'm not sure it's going to make much difference. I was neglected/abused in my family and just wanted love and acceptance. Someone who seemed to be offering me that would have way more influence over me than anything else. I was ready and willing to abandon myself completely if it meant I got love. An intellectual understanding of abuse dynamics may have helped a bit; my peers understanding such dynamics may have helped a bit, too. But ultimately, what I needed was physical, material protection provided by people who actually cared about me. That's the only thing that would have got me away from my abuser sooner.

I had been raped by someone else before this relationship, and also been in a long relationship with a much older man. That relationship wasn't abusive as such, but it was very unequal and his feelings towards me were very casual compared to mine for him. He actually started seeing someone else while we were still 'together' and I was devastated but kept seeing him on and off for ages after that. So I was just bouncing from one abusive situation to another. I'm not sure that doing the FP at school would have been enough to stop me doing that. I was truly desperate for love.

But I do think it's a good idea, and maybe if the culture around me had been more understanding of victim-abuser dynamics, it would have made a difference. I just think it wouldn't have changed things enough, because in order to truly have boundaries and self-esteem, you have to have love in your life. Education might give you a framework of sorts, but it doesn't give you love.

It's like how we often say to women on relationships threads, what would you say if your daughter/best friend was in your situation? Obviously, women know that someone they love should not be in that situation. But they still think it's okay for them, because they don't have love for themselves.

@taylorswift1989 I agree, and am proof of this as even after completing the Freedom Programme, I STILL managed to get into another abusive relationship and had to do the programme again. I remember being in therapy just before Christmas one year. I'd broken up with my abusive partner, a partner who had falsely imprisoned and physically assaulted me FFS, for about the 5th time. He'd kept trying to come back and I'd managed to resist it, except now that Christmas was approaching and I felt so fucking sad that I'd be spending it on my own, I started talking myself into the idea. My therapist reminded me of all the reasons I shouldn't go back but even though I knew she was right, I kept thinking, it's ok for you, you have people to spend Christmas with, you don't get it, this is the only kind of love I can get in my life. So yes, like you, I was ready and willing to abandon myself completely if it meant I got love.

But ultimately, what I needed was physical, material protection provided by people who actually cared about me.

Yes, this is the only thing that would've prevented me bouncing from abusive relationship to abusive relationship. I needed a parent to turn to, or a sibling, but that wasn't possible. Friends, understandably, were exasperated and lost. I think the main reason I managed to get out of the relationship I described above (which ended a few years ago and I've stayed away from relationships since) is because I had secure housing, which for me was the next best thing to love. I didn't have to worry about where I would go or how I would afford a roof over my head. He never had that power. I never let him move in even though he wanted to. I can't even imagine what it's like with children in the mix.

It's like how we often say to women on relationships threads, what would you say if your daughter/best friend was in your situation? Obviously, women know that someone they love should not be in that situation. But they still think it's okay for them, because they don't have love for themselves.

Exactly. I remember starting a thread about what was happening to me years ago and people responded with things like this. I couldn't see it, and as with my therapist I kept thinking, but it's ok for you, I bet you have people who love you. I even ended up getting defensive, like, you don't know him like I do, he doesn't mean it like that.

The best thing I ever did was get a cat. I honestly didn't know what love was until I got him. There's no fucking way I'd allow an abuser into his life and there's no fucking way I'd let anyone abuse me and jeopardise my ability to take care of him. So yeah, secure housing and the love of a cat has broken the cycle. And I'm really glad the cycle has broken for you too.

TL;DR you're absolutely right. It's a start but it's no replacement for a lack of love, security and all the complex feelings that go with it. The best chance we have is most likely a bottom-up approach, ensuring that vulnerable women (and men) have a chance at achieving Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

@VictorianBigot I’m so glad your cat brings you love and strength. They’re little shits (or mine is), but underrated as a source of love and meaning in one’s life

I've concluded that, for a lot of men in the public eye, being a male feminist is like the old practice of buying indulgences. 

This has got to be the most succinct summation of the 'creep protects himself by 'standing on the Right Side of History'" phenomenon!!

I think we see a bit of that on these threads.
Women who describe been totally cool with sharing public amenities, even communal changing rooms, with male strangers who lay claim to a womanly gender identity. Or, more recently, taking a scathing tone towards women who only want intimate care or intrusive medical procedures performed for them by another female person.
It's easier to pretend you're ok with it than admit that whether or not you want this thing to happen won't matter a jot in determining whether or not it actually happens. You can feel like a fully bodily autonomous human being, the sort of human being who really matters, for a while longer.

'You're not taking away my rights because I already said you could have them.'

Another reason why I come to MN for insight, rather than the MSM.