Tragedy of the clueless

[Webcat86]

I like iPads. I dislike the idea of a “pro” iPad that can’t really do anything special that a base iPad can’t do, yet was promoted - and priced - as a PC replacement. I fell for that marketing and I can’t think of a single thing I can do on that device that I can’t do on cheaper one.

So will I find similar posts from you about AirPod Pros, and iPhone Pros, and MacBook Pros?

"Pro" for Apple often means relative improvements over non-pro models. And the iPad Pro meets that same requirement even if you don't want to admit it:

- it's the only iPad with an M4 chip
- it's the only iPad with an OLED screen
- it's the only iPad with Thunderbolt
- it's the only iPad with ProMotion
- it's the only iPad with TrueDepth camera
- it's the only iPad with 4x speakers and 4x microphones
- it's the only iPad with FaceID
- it's the only iPad with 2TB storage

It isn't about being able to do more. A MacBook Pro functionally does not do anything that a MacBook Air can't do, except it has extra firepower to allow you to do more of certain things or do them faster.

An iPhone can do the same as an iPhone Pro, except the Pro might take better photos.

AirPods can do the same as the Pros, except the Pros give you optional noise cancelling etc.

Pro models are upgraded versions of the non-pro models and the iPad is no different in this regard. But for whatever reason, it gets held to a very different standard.

 

[richpjr]

Great, you're in the extreme minority of users. Apple would recommend you buy a Mac instead of an iPad. The iPad does not need to cover your niche use case to be a valid product.

LOL - copy folders isn't an extreme minority of users.

 

[NT1440]

LOL - copy folders isn't an extreme minority of users.

That user’s workflow is far beyond simply copying folders.

 

[Webcat86]

LOL - copy folders isn't an extreme minority of users.

What part of their stated requirement says “copy folders” to you? They even said it’s not copy paste.

 

[SnowCrocodile]

So will I find similar posts from you about AirPod Pros, and iPhone Pros, and MacBook Pros?

"Pro" for Apple often means relative improvements over non-pro models. And the iPad Pro meets that same requirement even if you don't want to admit it:

- it's the only iPad with an M4 chip
- it's the only iPad with an OLED screen
- it's the only iPad with Thunderbolt
- it's the only iPad with ProMotion
- it's the only iPad with TrueDepth camera
- it's the only iPad with 4x speakers and 4x microphones
- it's the only iPad with FaceID
- it's the only iPad with 2TB storage

It isn't about being able to do more. A MacBook Pro functionally does not do anything that a MacBook Air can't do, except it has extra firepower to allow you to do more of certain things or do them faster.

An iPhone can do the same as an iPhone Pro, except the Pro might take better photos.

AirPods can do the same as the Pros, except the Pros give you optional noise cancelling etc.

Pro models are upgraded versions of the non-pro models and the iPad is no different in this regard. But for whatever reason, it gets held to a very different standard.

Except, iPad Pro was *specifically* marketed as a PC replacement.

 

[ProbablyDylan]

Except, iPad Pro was *specifically* marketed as a PC replacement.

And it is! For a lot of people, it can and has functionally replaced a PC. The only thing you have proven is that your usage is incompatible with it. And that's fine - my desktop usage is incompatible with MacOS. That doesn't mean that my Mac Mini isn't a computer.

 

[flexwithmarius]

If you haven't played with some of the AI stuff in iPadOS 18 yet, it's clear from my experience with it that it needs all the performance it can get. on M1 at least in beta it is quite laggy - the NPU in the M4 is clearly what this sort of thing is aimed at.

What specific features are you referring to? Apple Intelligence won’t be in beta until late summer.

 

[Webcat86]

Except, iPad Pro was *specifically* marketed as a PC replacement.

Not in the sense that it is supposed to offer the same desktop computing experience, as I have already explained:

A "PC replacement" in no way means that Apple is suggesting iPad is offering a traditional computing experience (which is the particular point you were fighting with this ad). On the contrary — it is literally and explicitly demonstrating that this is a different experience. The commercial goes heavy on portability and adaptability.

Notice that it doesn't pretend someone is doing heavy coding or building websites or doing, frankly, rather more niche activities for which a desktop OS is genuinely required.

And before I get piled on, "niche" doesn't mean that hardly anyone does it or it doesn't matter. It means that it's not an activity the majority of customers use these devices for.

This is equally true of MacBooks and PCs — they have the functionality for almost anything we want to throw at them, but the majority aren't using those advanced features. I can count on one hand how many times I've used Terminal, and my family could count on zero fingers how many times they've used Terminal.

Outside of work (which for most people involves company-issued computers), most personal computers are used for consumption. So the iPad is the ideal device for many, many people (hence is outselling Macs by a wide margin, but let's all ignore that because it's inconvenient to the "iPad needs MacOS!" crowd) and the question "What's a computer?" is 1) apt and 2) not claiming that it offers a traditional desktop experience. It suggests that most people don't need a traditional desktop experience, and that the traditional desktop experience is restrictive in its own ways (i.e. taking photos, messaging, lightweight portability etc).

 

[throAU]

Please tell me how do I compare and synchronize (not merely copy and override) hundreds of files in deeply nested folders between two separate locations on the iPad ? Say, an external SSD and OneDrive. That’s something I actually do pretty often.

Maybe you could do that with a Siri shortcut. There's certainly a "get details of files". There's also a shortcut function to generate hashes.

I haven't tried to (because its not a workflow I do).

Seriously, if you have an iPad or iPhone (supports the same shortcuts), try it with the shortcuts app.

 

[throAU]

What specific features are you referring to? Apple Intelligence won’t be in beta until late summer.

Handwriting correction and math works in iPadOS 18 notes today.

 

[iToph]

Bummer? Maybe, but the business world runs on 60hz just fine and has for 1-2 decades with 60hz LCD panels at this point.

Faster would be nice but it isn’t a deal breaker.

when you’re ok with 60hz .. good for you. It is a dealbreaker for a 2000 dollar pro device.

 

[FeliApple]

I’m pretty happy with iPadOS and I stopped using my Macbook Pro years ago. But my job is mainly e-mails, spreadsheets, and periodic business trips. The iPad Pro is perfect for me. The absence of the pencil and rear camera on a Macbook are deal breakers for me.

I use the Apple Pencil A TON in meetings so I’m super excited about the new script function which will make my notes neater. I upgraded to 18 just for that. The calculator looks interesting but I’m not sure if I’ll use it much.

I’m also excited about the AI which can proofread stuff that I write on my M1 iPad Pro.

I was happy with iPadOS before so today was all gravy for me.

You see? He’s right. MacOS has no rear camera? Garbage. Install iPadOS on the Mac and add a rear camera. After all, even the iPod Touch 4G, an iOS device from... 2010! Has a rear camera. And the latest M4 Mac doesn’t? Why would it need such a ridiculously powerful processor if it can’t even capture VGA photography? I want to take pictures with my Mac. Bring iPadOS to the Mac and add a rear camera.

 

[SnowCrocodile]

Not in the sense that it is supposed to offer the same desktop computing experience, as I have already explained:

But this would apply to any iPad.

Yet, the ad was specifically about the Pro.

Apple clearly indicated that there was something different about the Pro which made it a PC replacement.

In reality, it's just a very expensive and somewhat nicer base iPad.

At least the original Pro did allow connecting external SSD drives without adapters. But, it still ran the iOS (or was it already called iPadOS ?) so the same horribly limited file management.

 

[SnowCrocodile]

And it is! For a lot of people, it can and has functionally replaced a PC. The only thing you have proven is that your usage is incompatible with it. And that's fine - my desktop usage is incompatible with MacOS. That doesn't mean that my Mac Mini isn't a computer.

But for a lot of people, a base iPad, a cheap Android table, or a large phone wold functionally replace a PC as well.

As is very well evidenced by declining laptop sales - a lot of people actually never owned a laptop in the last 5-7 years.

What was so special about iPad Pro that Apple made the "What a PC" ad about that particular model ?

 

[NEPOBABY]

Except, iPad Pro was *specifically* marketed as a PC replacement.

Netbook replacement if everyone remembers.

It killed the Netbook market.

And it is killing Surface sales too.

Because Surface has to run Windows, which means they are clunky to use with hands. The desktop OS requires more processing power so these dumb Surface laptops need vents...

 

[SnowCrocodile]

Maybe you could do that with a Siri shortcut. There's certainly a "get details of files". There's also a shortcut function to generate hashes.

I haven't tried to (because its not a workflow I do).

Seriously, if you have an iPad or iPhone (supports the same shortcuts), try it with the shortcuts app.

I tried, but wasn't able to make it work. Perhaps someone better than I can.

File synchronization is a powerful and dangerous tool. I don't know if I would trust a bandaid solution (which is what Shortcuts is) to not destroy my data.

 

[Webcat86]

But this would apply to any iPad.

Yet, the ad was specifically about the Pro.

Apple clearly indicated that there was something different about the Pro which made it a PC replacement.

In reality, it's just a very expensive and somewhat nicer base iPad.

At least the original Pro did allow connecting external SSD drives without adapters. But, it still ran the iOS (or was it already called iPadOS ?) so the same horribly limited file management.

Honestly I think you're overthinking it. The same ad also specifically touted iOS11 — Apple was really promoting the latest and greatest.

You are absolutely right that most users would be able to do what they need on a cheaper iPad, or a different tablet. But of course, this is also true for people with MBPs, iMacs, and the higher tiered iPhones. It isn't unique to the iPad.

If we want to get into more of the nitty gritty though, the Pro does have its differentiating features. You've just mentioned SSDs on the original. Well the current one supports Thunderbolt. The better screen, microphones and speakers make it more suitable for creatives.

The Air has basically become 'last year's Pro' so the support for Pencil Pro is there, but not on the base iPads. Again, this is a big deal for creatives.

So to restate my general position here: the iPad can improve and I would like to see the Pro hardware be used to a greater extent. But the Pro moniker is not really any less accurate than it is on Apple's other products, and Apple has never said it will give a desktop computing experience by pushing it as a PC replacement. And the Pro has had, and continues to have, differentiating features that separate it from the others — whether they're relevant to all users is a separate point.

 

[SnowCrocodile]

Great, you're in the extreme minority of users. Apple would recommend you buy a Mac instead of an iPad. The iPad does not need to cover your niche use case to be a valid product.

And yet, I could do that on an Android tablet that costs way less than iPad Pro and comes with a built-in pen.

There are multiple file sync apps that support Android, Windows, Linux and MacOS... just not iOS/iPadOS.

Seems that only the extreme minority of users actually needs an iPad Pro, too. Since there's very little it can do that a base iPad can't, despite having top of the line hardware. It's like buying a Ferrari and paying the full price but it is software-limited to driving at 70 mph max and going 0-60 in 7 seconds.

 

[ProbablyDylan]

But for a lot of people, a base iPad, a cheap Android table, or a large phone wold functionally replace a PC as well.

As is very well evidenced by declining laptop sales - a lot of people actually never owned a laptop in the last 5-7 years.

What was so special about iPad Pro that Apple made the "What a PC" ad about that particular model ?

It costs more. Seriously, I believe you're reading subtext that just is not there. Yes, the cheap version can replace a PC, but Tim would really prefer you buy the model with better margins. Hence, the ad.

 

[NT1440]

But for a lot of people, a base iPad, a cheap Android table, or a large phone wold functionally replace a PC as well.

As is very well evidenced by declining laptop sales - a lot of people actually never owned a laptop in the last 5-7 years.

What was so special about iPad Pro that Apple made the "What a PC" ad about that particular model ?

That’s absolutely true. Now, why would Apple advertise products for other companies (android or large phone)?

What I can’t understand is why you seem so personally offended that your needs are greater than 90% of computer users out there?

 

[ProbablyDylan]

Seems that only the extreme minority of users actually needs an iPad Pro, too. Since there's very little it can do that a base iPad can't, despite having top of the line hardware.

I'm hoping to get at least 4 years of primary computer use out of my M4 iPad, hopefully more. M4 has all the headroom in the world to last that long, something I can't say for the A12Z or M1 model.

It's like buying a Ferrari and paying the full price but it is software-limited to driving at 70 mph max and going 0-60 in 7 seconds.

I live in LA, I wouldn't be able to go full throttle anyways cause of traffic 😂

 

[SnowCrocodile]

Netbook replacement if everyone remembers.

It killed the Netbook market.

And it is killing Surface sales too.

Because Surface has to run Windows, which means they are clunky to use with hands. The desktop OS requires more processing power so these dumb Surface laptops need vents...

View attachment 2388831

MS is what killed Surface sales. It was mainly aimed at businesses, the individual consumers were never the intended target and rather an afterthought. And the businesses that bought them are not switching to iPads now. An iPad simply can't run most of the software that they use.

Our company is a good example. All PMs, field engineers, salesmen and managers were issued top-of-the-line, fully loaded Surface Pros for the past 5-6 years. Nobody expected them to be "tablets", just very portable 2-in-1 laptops that could be used in tablet mode. A device that you could use in field to mark up drawings or specs and potentially take field photos, and the same device back in the office / hotel for a full PC experience.

The biggest problem with Surfaces is **** hardware. The battery life is abhorrent. They advertise "up to 16 hours" but I never had it last over 3.5 hrs, and usually it goes from 100% to 40% in an hour long Teams meeting with some background apps open. The batteries also tend to swell after a couple years, although mine is holding up. The proprietary chargers fail. This has become enough of a problem that we are now switching to Dell XPS. Not sure if that will prove any better.

Our main competitor across the town is also switching from Surfaces, only they selected ThinkPads.

Windows 11 is nowhere near as good for touch / pen operation as iPadOS, but being able to immediately correct an engineering issue you just found in field, by pulling the 3D model off company server and making changes in Inventor without leaving the spot, is priceless. Whatever we end up with 10 years from now, is still going to run Windows.

 

[GMShadow]

And yet, I could do that on an Android tablet that costs way less than iPad Pro and comes with a built-in pen.

There are multiple file sync apps that support Android, Windows, Linux and MacOS... just not iOS/iPadOS.

Seems that only the extreme minority of users actually needs an iPad Pro, too. Since there's very little it can do that a base iPad can't, despite having top of the line hardware. It's like buying a Ferrari and paying the full price but it is software-limited to driving at 70 mph max and going 0-60 in 7 seconds.

So buy an Android tablet and stop demanding the iPad be something it isnt. The rest of us will be happy with the iPads we have.

 

[GMShadow]

I'm hoping to get at least 4 years of primary computer use out of my M4 iPad, hopefully more. M4 has all the headroom in the world to last that long, something I can't say for the A12Z or M1 model.



I live in LA, I wouldn't be able to go full throttle anyways cause of traffic 😂

I upgraded last year from A12Z to M2 mostly because I knew the new model would require a new Magic Keyboard and I wasn’t wanting to buy one just yet. It was still fine performance wise but the age of the A12 cores was starting to be noticeable compared to my newer devices - things like updates or anything that hit the ML cores were a good amount slower.

I expect the M2 model will be fine for me for another 4 years.

 

[NT1440]

MS is what killed Surface sales. It was mainly aimed at businesses, the individual consumers were never the intended target and rather an afterthought. And the businesses that bought them are not switching to iPads now. An iPad simply can't run most of the software that they use.

Our company is a good example. All PMs, field engineers, salesmen and managers were issued top-of-the-line, fully loaded Surface Pros for the past 5-6 years. Nobody expected them to be "tablets", just very portable 2-in-1 laptops that could be used in tablet mode. A device that you could use in field to mark up drawings or specs and potentially take field photos, and the same device back in the office / hotel for a full PC experience.

The biggest problem with Surfaces is **** hardware. The battery life is abhorrent. They advertise "up to 16 hours" but I never had it last over 3.5 hrs, and usually it goes from 100% to 40% in an hour long Teams meeting with some background apps open. The batteries also tend to swell after a couple years, although mine is holding up. The proprietary chargers fail. This has become enough of a problem that we are now switching to Dell XPS. Not sure if that will prove any better.

Our main competitor across the town is also switching from Surfaces, only they selected ThinkPads.

Windows 11 is nowhere near as good for touch / pen operation as iPadOS, but being able to immediately correct an engineering issue you just found in field, by pulling the 3D model off company server and making changes in Inventor without leaving the spot, is priceless. Whatever we end up with 10 years from now, is still going to run Windows.

Congratulations, you have a workflow due to technical constraints that the iPad can’t do.

Now, why is that a problem for Apple to solve when your company is the one that doesn’t have their workflow infrastructure set up for iPad? Is there a reason you’re expecting a different platform to somehow be a drop-in solution?

I’m the guy behind the scenes who puts the technological pieces together for both infrastructure and the user’s ability to access and use it. Whether you realize it or not, the use case you brought up is likely possible for your company…but that requires work on the back end and an adoption of new tools and training to accomplish the same end result. So either they haven’t looked into it, or they’ve determined it’s not worth the effort to do so. Both are valid unless this is some big fully funded initiative from your CTO.