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marvin_h

macrumors regular
Aug 6, 2015
143
99
A movie .mkv file (not currently supported) can be almost 100 GB in size. Likely a problem with a current maxed out 128 GB Apple TV.
iTunes uhd movies are not that big. More like 20g.

And the hope is that Apple simply treats purchases of uhd movies like hd movies. I can download my purchases to my laptop or iPad. And watch it on the device or on the AppleTV using local media sharing. This avoids issues with internet outages or being on an airplane, crappy WiFi, expensive cellular. But we can only do this in hd.

I would like to be able to download my purchases to my computer or iPad and watch them offline in 4k hdr with lossless audio, and watch locally over the network on my appletv.
 

mutelight

macrumors member
Jun 23, 2010
33
9
Bay Area, CA
Ah ok. Thx.

But then another question:

Do i get Atmos (maybe lossy, but anyway) out of the HDMI port of a Mac at the moment?

And btw: is the Apple Music Atmos lossless?
Atmos on Apple Music is lossy E-AC-3.

I tried the feature highlighted in this article with my Mac and AVR and it does bitstream E-AC-3 with Atmos out of the Music app but we have yet to see if anything but E-AC-3 passthrough is supported and if other developers leverage it.
 
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marvin_h

macrumors regular
Aug 6, 2015
143
99
Atmos on Apple Music is lossy E-AC-3.

I tried the feature highlighted in this article with my Mac and AVR and it does bitstream E-AC-3 with Atmos out of the Music app but we have yet to see if anything but E-AC-3 passthrough is supported and if other developers leverage it.
Do you have any apps like Infuse that allow you to test other audio?
 

mutelight

macrumors member
Jun 23, 2010
33
9
Bay Area, CA
Do you have any apps like Infuse that allow you to test other audio?
Infuse would need to add support for the passthrough that Apple allows. My guess is that this feature will largely just be passthrough for E-AC-3 content with Atmos from the Music and TV app on macOS since it doesn't do LPCM based Dolby MAT 2.0 AFAIK.

I would love to be wrong but I would rather expect the worst and hope for the best.
 

marvin_h

macrumors regular
Aug 6, 2015
143
99
They are compressed.



Contradictory. Lossless means much larger file sizes.
Sure I’m just asking for the UHD movie to be downloadable like the HD version.

And yeah while lossless audio would be larger it is only a few gigs larger. In other words a complete iTunes 4k movie with lossless audio would be c 30g.

One could still download smaller versions to one’s iPad or laptop of course. But it sure would be nice to have the option for full 4k hdr downloads even at the current iTunes quality.
 

mutelight

macrumors member
Jun 23, 2010
33
9
Bay Area, CA
Sure I’m just asking for the UHD movie to be downloadable like the HD version.

And yeah while lossless audio would be larger it is only a few gigs larger. In other words a complete iTunes 4k movie with lossless audio would be c 30g.

One could still download smaller versions to one’s iPad or laptop of course. But it sure would be nice to have the option for full 4k hdr downloads even at the current iTunes quality.
With streaming services every bit counts as far as hosting costs and scaling up to the number of users. They are always looking at ways to reduce cost and pursuing more efficient encoding methods. Adding lossless audio to streaming would cause the audio stream to more than double in size and very few people care about lossless audio. On top of that, the discrepancies between streaming and disc audio largely comes down to the mixes vs. the codec used.
 

b1narych0ice

macrumors newbie
Sep 30, 2014
13
9
Milwaukee, WI
I have been using an AVR as my main sound device for my Mac for a few years, I think I can help clarify a few things that have been asked a few times in this thread.

  1. Up until now, when listening to Atmos music on Apple Music or watching videos with Apple TV+ or VLC, the Mac always handled the audio decoding and processing, and just sent a 7.1 channel PCM signal to the AVR. If you have a 7.1 channel or less setup (no vertical speakers), you're getting more or less the same experience you would by letting the AVR do the audio decoding and processing. If you have vertical/height speakers, the new feature being added to allow the AVR to do the audio decoding and processing will allow you to use them!
  2. Apple TV (the device) has always (or for years) been able to send an Atmos signal to the AVR to let it do the decoding. This is just allowing the Mac to do the same thing.
  3. If you are sailing the seas for MKV rips, there are some that do include TrueHD (lossless) audio instead of EAC3 from what I've heard. Your Mac will now be able to pass the TrueHD signal AND the Atmos metadata to your AVR and allow the use of height speakers, instead of just decoding the TrueHD signal to 7.1 PCM before sending it to your AVR.
 

marvin_h

macrumors regular
Aug 6, 2015
143
99
With streaming services every bit counts as far as hosting costs and scaling up to the number of users. They are always looking at ways to reduce cost and pursuing more efficient encoding methods. Adding lossless audio to streaming would cause the audio stream to more than double in size and very few people care about lossless audio. On top of that, the discrepancies between streaming and disc audio largely comes down to the mixes vs. the codec used.
Yep!

We can list a dozen reasons it’s hard and/or not necessary….and appeal to profit margins getting squeezed, audiences not caring, etc.

And all those statements are true.

That was also true of:

lossless music on Apple Music,

or HDR, or

Dolby Vision, or

4k content.

Or even Atmos…..

…which are not as easy, cheap, nor a big perceptual difference for many users.

But

Apple is typically not happy with being pegged to the lowest common denominator in terms of content quality. In fact they have often tried to differentiate themselves by being in the upper quartile.

So hopefully they step up here like they have in so many other areas.

Now do I believe they will? Maybe not until someone else does. They didn’t offer lossless music until other services did.
 
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marvin_h

macrumors regular
Aug 6, 2015
143
99
I have been using an AVR as my main sound device for my Mac for a few years, I think I can help clarify a few things that have been asked a few times in this thread.

  1. Up until now, when listening to Atmos music on Apple Music or watching videos with Apple TV+ or VLC, the Mac always handled the audio decoding and processing, and just sent a 7.1 channel PCM signal to the AVR. If you have a 7.1 channel or less setup (no vertical speakers), you're getting more or less the same experience you would by letting the AVR do the audio decoding and processing. If you have vertical/height speakers, the new feature being added to allow the AVR to do the audio decoding and processing will allow you to use them!
  2. Apple TV (the device) has always (or for years) been able to send an Atmos signal to the AVR to let it do the decoding. This is just allowing the Mac to do the same thing.
  3. If you are sailing the seas for MKV rips, there are some that do include TrueHD (lossless) audio instead of EAC3 from what I've heard. Your Mac will now be able to pass the TrueHD signal AND the Atmos metadata to your AVR and allow the use of height speakers, instead of just decoding the TrueHD signal to 7.1 PCM before sending it to your AVR.
#1 should be true here for Apple sourced content. Hopefully it is true for all content.
#2 is only true for for Dolby MAT on top of lossy audio.
#3 this is the hope but so far unconfirmed.
 
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nateo200

macrumors 68030
Feb 4, 2009
2,911
45
Upstate NY
A movie .mkv file (not currently supported) can be almost 100 GB in size. Likely a problem with a current maxed out 128 GB Apple TV.
Uh yeah if you use an uncompressed Blu-ray RIP. I always compress my .mkv's down to a fraction of that. A high quality 4K MKV would be 2-6GB's unless it included HD audio as well or other considerations.
 

marvin_h

macrumors regular
Aug 6, 2015
143
99
Uh yeah if you use an uncompressed Blu-ray RIP. I always compress my .mkv's down to a fraction of that. A high quality 4K MKV would be 2-6GB's unless it included HD audio as well or other considerations.
True and we don’t store hd movies on the ATV hardware why would we store UHD movies on it? We store itunes Movie downloads on a computer or iOS device, which have plenty of storage for even 100g movie files.
 

mogga71

macrumors member
Apr 7, 2017
51
69
London
A movie .mkv file (not currently supported) can be almost 100 GB in size. Likely a problem with a current maxed out 128 GB Apple TV.

Yip agreed ... however whilst the likes of the original Blade Runner UHD disk had a 100 GB footprint, the vast majority these days come in at around 60 GB .... then when you discard the not required other audio tracks ..... eg. discard everything other than Atmos English spoken track, you could get them down further However, yes they would need to up the storage space. Let's be honest though, chances of Apple allowing lossless tracks to be downloaded are not good at all.

I am really hoping that FireCore ... the makers of Infuse make an announcement about this soon. They have been trying to get Apple to open up lossless audio content for years and even raised a petition.

Having thought about this more I think that the article is probably causing us all to focus about lossless on the Apple TV too much.However it very probably is just making the Mac perform like an AppleTV in that you will be able to send compressed Atmos audio to receiver/soundbar via HDMI port. If lossless audio was coming to the Apple TV then I think there would be a new option on the TVOS betas for lossless audio passthrough. There isn't.

For example, presently using current version of MacOS (no betas) when I use Infuse to watch a EAC-3 Atmos rip via HDMI (connect to an Atmos soundbar) I don't get the EAC-3 coming through (ie. no Atmos light). However playing exactly the same rip on the AppleTV using Infuse shows Atmos. I think the announcement means that with the new feature ... and when the likes of Infuse update their MacOS app .... EAC-3 only will be bit streamed to the audio device ... so it comes in line with AppleTV.
 
Last edited:

andy o

macrumors newbie
Jan 26, 2011
10
7
So did anybody click on "About HDMI Passthrough" per the screenshot, to see if there are any more details? Personally I also think that this doesn't necessarily (and likely) mean lossless. You can "pass through" any kind of format allowed by HDMI, but you don't need to allow all of them. For example, newer LG TVs allow "pass through" of only Dolby formats, not DTS.
 

mogga71

macrumors member
Apr 7, 2017
51
69
London
So did anybody click on "About HDMI Passthrough" per the screenshot, to see if there are any more details? Personally I also think that this doesn't necessarily (and likely) mean lossless. You can "pass through" any kind of format allowed by HDMI, but you don't need to allow all of them. For example, newer LG TVs allow "pass through" of only Dolby formats, not DTS.
When you click on it it says :

The selected content is currently unavailable​


Alas, I am pretty sure the article has falsely raised our hopes about lossless on Apple TV. It ain't happening.
 
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lindijones

macrumors newbie
Jul 13, 2021
22
26
I have been using an AVR as my main sound device for my Mac for a few years, I think I can help clarify a few things that have been asked a few times in this thread.

  1. Up until now, when listening to Atmos music on Apple Music or watching videos with Apple TV+ or VLC, the Mac always handled the audio decoding and processing, and just sent a 7.1 channel PCM signal to the AVR. If you have a 7.1 channel or less setup (no vertical speakers), you're getting more or less the same experience you would by letting the AVR do the audio decoding and processing. If you have vertical/height speakers, the new feature being added to allow the AVR to do the audio decoding and processing will allow you to use them!
  2. Apple TV (the device) has always (or for years) been able to send an Atmos signal to the AVR to let it do the decoding. This is just allowing the Mac to do the same thing.
  3. If you are sailing the seas for MKV rips, there are some that do include TrueHD (lossless) audio instead of EAC3 from what I've heard. Your Mac will now be able to pass the TrueHD signal AND the Atmos metadata to your AVR and allow the use of height speakers, instead of just decoding the TrueHD signal to 7.1 PCM before sending it to your AVR.
Thx for this clarification.

That‘s what i meant.
Atmos (lossy) already works with the Apple TV (device).
And for the Mac it‘s new.
 

Gnomeo86

macrumors member
May 3, 2016
55
70
Amsterdam
No other mainstream streaming device supports it either that I know of outside of the Nvidia Shield, I just think most people don’t know/care about lossless audio so it’s not a selling point.

Both Windows and Linux have supported Atmos passthrough for years. As for dedicated players, I'm using a Dune HD which does a fantastic job. And there are plenty more on the market that support HD audio passthrough.
 

HDFan

Contributor
Jun 30, 2007
6,951
3,072
And yeah while lossless audio would be larger it is only a few gigs larger. In other words a complete iTunes 4k movie with lossless audio would be c 30g.

It's not just a few Gb larger. A lossless track can run at 4687 kb/s or more per second, and that is just for one audio track. For movies with an international release you can have a number of tracks. Here's the data for Snatch 2000, the worst case in my library as far as bitrate goes:

Screenshot 2024-07-04 at 01.25.13.png


however whilst the likes of the original Blade Runner UHD disk had a 100 GB footprint, the vast majority these days come in at around 60 GB ..

Yes, there is quite a range for 4K. The Grinch has the lowest bitrate in my library at 38.9 Mbps. Can't figure out how to calculate the average for my 4K movies but median looks to be in the 60-70 Mbps range - as many above as below.
 

mattyj2001

macrumors regular
Oct 29, 2015
110
407
This is a welcome feature for sure! 👍 However, one of the biggest gripes from audio engineers is how spatial audio in AirPods sounds so much different than their original Dolby Atmos mix.
Are people really expecting spatial audio to sound the same in an AirPod and a room with upfiring surround speakers? Even a regular old CD doesn't sound the same in AirPods. Tall order.
 

mogga71

macrumors member
Apr 7, 2017
51
69
London
I'm almost hoping it's not for TrueHD because then I'd have just wasted some money for a Shield for this very purpose.
I know exactly what you mean ... however part of me wants this to work with AppleTV (although I am 90% sure it won't) as I cannot stand the menu system on the Shield. It looks like a kid designed it when compared to the AppleTV menus.
 

Jus711

macrumors regular
Jul 12, 2011
168
99
Let me clarify: ”mainstream streamer” to me means  tv, Chromecast/Google TV/Android TV, Fire TV, Roku, those are the devices/OSes most people have or that come preloaded on a TV and therefore the devices  TV is competing against. There is one Fire TV device that will do it and it’s the least popular/portable. And the shield which runs Android, and is a niche device at this point.
 
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