In a historic verdict, Trump found guilty on 34 felony counts in hush money trial
SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
After roughly 10 hours of deliberation, a jury of 12 New Yorkers reached a verdict in the criminal hush money trial of former President Donald Trump - guilty on all 34 counts of felony falsification of business records. In this episode, we are going to dive into this historic verdict, what it means legally, what it means historically and what it means politically in a presidential election. We'll give you our analysis as it unfolded in real time on NPR.
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DETROW: It's CONSIDER THIS FROM NPR. I'm Scott Detrow.
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DETROW: It's CONSIDER THIS FROM NPR, I'm Scott Detrow. And in the moments after the verdict was announced, my co-host Juana Summers and I were joined by an NPR roundtable, justice correspondent Carrie Johnson, senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro, White House correspondent Franco Ordoñez, Boston University professor Jed Shugerman and our reporter in the courthouse, Andrea Bernstein.
Former President Donald Trump has been found guilty on 34 felony counts - the charge, falsifying business records in the first degree. This case centered around hush money payments that were paid to an adult film actress in the closing days of the 2016 presidential election. The crime here itself isn't necessarily the hush money payments, it's the fact that they were falsified as business records paid back to Michael Cohen under the guise of retainers. Domenico Montanaro, we've been talking about this hypothetically for months and months now, more than a year since these charges were brought. Now we know that one of the candidates for president of the United States has been found guilty in a criminal court.
DOMENICO MONTANARO, BYLINE: Yeah, it's yet another stunning moment in the era of Trump. I mean, it's one of those things. I mean, to hear, you know, even you say that a former president now for the first time is convicted of a crime, it is quite remarkable, not only remarkable that that's happening but that he's also running at the same time. And already his campaign - you know, one of his people affiliated with his campaign tweeting out, so corrupt.
And so you see where the spin is going to go with this immediately, to try to be able to get all of that base of support back together and keep it together as many people, by the way, are going to be starting only now to really be tuning into this. Because people have actively been trying to tune out a lot of this kind of political information because they've been so sour on both candidates, and they just feel like this is so much chaos. But a lot of people, this is going to be one of those things. A lot of people are going to want to at least find out what happened here, exactly? What do we know?
DETROW: Right.
MONTANARO: What does this mean?
DETROW: And of course, there's multiple other criminal trials that Donald Trump is facing. There's a very good chance that none of them go to trial this year. There's a federal trial related to January 6 and Trump's attempts to overturn the election. There's a Florida federal trial regarding classified documents, how he allegedly kept them and would not return them to the federal government. Then there's a Georgia criminal case as well regarding the attempts to overturn the election. A lot of questions - how does Donald Trump and his campaign continue to attack and undermine this verdict? Domenico, also questions about what Joe Biden does here, especially given Biden's attempts to try and stay above this, to try and make it not look like he's politicizing this in any way?
MONTANARO: Yeah, what does Joe Biden do? Because, you know, we've been hearing that the Biden campaign starting to shift strategy, that the president is going to start to talk about this now after there's been a verdict. You know, the former president, Trump, has been unabashedly accusing the current president of, you know, targeting him politically with these cases, which there's no evidence.
It's not only no evidence, it's completely baseless, because first of all, this is a case that's brought by New York prosecutors that, of course, obviously, a president doesn't even have any control over. And even these federal cases, the White House has gone to pains to show its independence and not - you know, allowing the Justice Department to have independence and show it's not interfering whatsoever. But this is going to be a pivotal moment for a campaign that's been frustrated by the fact that Donald Trump continues to get wall-to-wall coverage. And they've been wanting to angle themselves in there to get more of that attention.
DETROW: We've been talking about this in the context of the presidential election that's underway, but worth just taking another step back. There's been 46 U.S. presidents, one has been convicted in a criminal court and that's Donald Trump. Domenico Montanaro, thank you very much. We'll talk again soon.
MONTANARO: You got it.
JUANA SUMMERS, BYLINE: Jed Shugerman is a Boston University law professor. And, Jed, I just want to start by asking you for your initial reaction upon hearing that former President Trump has been convicted on all 34 counts of falsifying business records by a jury of 12 New Yorkers.
JED SHUGERMAN: My initial reaction is mixed, in that - you know, as a critic of the prosecution making some of these decisions. On the other hand, I am also pretty astonished about how Trump has been able to avoid legal accountability for so many other crimes. And those prosecutions were stronger. So there's something of legal karma here. And I also want to say, you got to give the prosecution credit because they got the guilty verdict. Somewhere between jury selection and the strategy with this case, they got their prosecution. I will note that, legally, I think the prosecution and the judge made some choices that made a jury verdict for guilt more likely at the trade-off of making the likelihood that it gets overturned on appeal also more likely. That's the trade-off that I think was a strategic decision.
SUMMERS: We will assume that the former president will indeed appeal this decision. Tell us what happens then.
SHUGERMAN: Well, this first - there are two stages in New York State court, and then there would be, at some point down the road, an appeal from the highest New York Court to the Supreme Court. You can't go to federal court until that last stage. And the question that I think is hard to answer is whether New York allows for such an expedited process that an appeal could be heard and decided before the election. I think that's unlikely, but there is an expedited process in New York to get that intermediate stage. That's not the highest court, but it's at least an intermediate appellate court to hear these questions.
SUMMERS: That's Jed Shugerman, Boston University law professor. Thank you so much.
SHUGERMAN: Thank you.
DETROW: Franco Ordoñez is covering the Trump campaign for us. And Franco, we've talked about how Trump has tried to undermine this. We have - we're - we were just hearing that Trump's sentencing will be July 11, which, off the top of my head, is shortly before the Republican National Convention makes him the official Republican nominee for president. Franco Ordoñez - we talked about how Trump and his allies have been trying to undermine this process all along. We're hearing the first wave of response. What are we hearing?
FRANCO ORDOÑEZ, BYLINE: Yeah, I mean, we're - we are starting to hear responses. I mean, from senior advisor Chris LaCivita - he tweeted out or, you know, posted on X that the fix was always in. You're also hearing from House Speaker Mike Johnson, another ally, calling it a shameful day in American history.
These are the kind of things that Trump and his team have been kind of setting the stage for, as you said, undermining the campaign, painting the judge as biased, painting the jury as biased, arguing that, of course, it was going to be unfair to Biden because it's in Manhattan, in New York, such a blue part of the country.
This is - you have been hearing this over and over again. When I talk to Trump world, they say they are already preparing to appeal this. So I anticipate that, you know, we still have a lot to go. And I'll just add that June 11 is also not only close to the conventions but also close...
SUMMERS: July 11.
ORDOÑEZ: July 11 - pardon me. It is right before the conventions and immediately after the debate or soon after the first debate.
DETROW: Right.
ORDOÑEZ: So we'll be talking about this at the debate, as well.
DETROW: Right. Some other response - Elise Stefanik, a key House Republican, somebody who is on the short list, as far as we know, for Trump's Vice Presidential pick - today's verdict shows how corrupt and rigged the American justice system has become under Joe Biden. I fully support President Trump appealing this decision.
Franco, we're talking about all these different ways that Republicans have attacked this, but Trump has shared a lot of disinformation as well, including recently claiming that the FBI had orders to shoot him when they - when it raided Mar-a-Lago last year as part of a separate case, which is, of course, not the case. Donald Trump was not on the property at all.
ORDOÑEZ: That's correct. I mean, look, this has been an issue with Trump for a long time - the use of his bully pulpit to kind of spread information, to kind of confuse listeners, to confuse the American public, to kind of draw himself, to paint himself, as we have heard before and reported many times, as kind of a victim of a system that is biased against him, biased against Republicans. We've heard over and over again - this is how he has stoked his base, stoked his supporters - arguing that he is not the one who they're going after. They're actually going after his supporters. They're going after Republicans, but he is standing in their way.
DETROW: Donald Trump is walking to the point in the hallway where he can talk to reporters. We are going to listen to him. He has now been convicted of 34 criminal counts, all 34 criminal counts.
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DONALD TRUMP: We were at 5% or 6% in this district, in this area. This was a rigged, disgraceful trial. The real verdict is going to be November 5 by the people, and they know what happened here, and everybody knows what happened here. You have a Soros-backed DA. And the whole thing - we didn't do a thing wrong. I'm a very innocent man, and it's OK. I'm fighting for our country. I'm fighting for our constitution. Our whole country is being rigged right now.
This was done by the Biden administration in order to wound or hurt an opponent, a political opponent.
DETROW: Going to fact-check - this is a state level...
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TRUMP: I think it's a - just a...
DETROW: ...Criminal case.
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TRUMP: ...Disgrace. And we'll keep fighting. We'll fight till the end, and we'll win because our country's gone to hell. We don't have the same country anymore. We have a divided mess. We're a nation of decline, serious decline, milions and millions of people pouring into our country right now.
DETROW: Trump campaigning here from the courtroom hallway as he's been doing throughout this trial. He's now been found guilty on all 34 felony counts.
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TRUMP: We have a country that's in big trouble, but this was a rigged decision right from Day 1 with a conflicted judge who should have never been allowed to try this case - never. And we will fight for our constitution. This is long from over. Thank you very much.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER #1: Why should voters vote for a convicted felon?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER #2: Are you going to drop out?
DETROW: Questions from reporters - we're going to hang here a minute to see if he responds.
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SUMMERS: I just want to recap some of what we've heard from former President Donald Trump. He called this trial a rigged, disgraceful trial and said that the real verdict is going to be on November 5 by the people. For those keeping track at home, that's Election Day. He says he is a very innocent man, that he is fighting for the country, fighting for the Constitution. He has alleged without evidence that this was orchestrated by President Joe Biden's administration. He says that we don't have the same country anymore.
Let's go now to NPR senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro. Domenico, what stood out from you from hearing from the former president there?
MONTANARO: Well, I mean, just clearly the irritation in his voice, a very sort of ad-libbed statement there of some of his greatest hits. He's not happy about what has gone down. I think that he has the same sort of concerns about, you know, whether or not this - how this is going to play with those general election voters. And right now, they're scrambling a bit on the Trump side to try to say that this is rigged, as Trump was saying, and try to sort of throw in any direction possible away from himself, to sort of deflect away from himself and any accountability, and say that he's going to continue fighting. Certainly plays into his victimhood strategy that he's been using since he sort of came onto the scene - but, you know, we're five months from the presidential election. And he is right. There's going to be a verdict in November, and his team has pushed very hard to get all of these trials pushed off beyond the election. And this was the one that he just couldn't shake and it's gnawing at him.
DETROW: Donald Trump found guilty on all 34 felony counts that he faced. This was for falsifying business records in the first degree. Trump now running for president again, being convicted in a criminal court room, and we are hearing him attack the process, say it was rigged, attack Joe Biden, who we should just say, again, had nothing to do with this case. This is a state-level case brought by New York City's district attorney, and a verdict was reached by 12 New Yorkers who sat through this trial for more than six weeks, who by all accounts, took it very seriously took copious notes, focused in on the process and deliberated for about 10 hours over the course of two days before reaching this historic verdict. Carrie Johnson, you have covered a lot of legal issues. What are you thinking about and asking about right now?
CARRIE JOHNSON, BYLINE: This is a jury that did its work very thoroughly but also very quickly. What I'm thinking about now is the idea that this is a state crime, a series of state crimes, and that even if Donald Trump were to regain the White House, he could not pardon himself from this state crime. And so that means his fight now goes to the appeals courts, and he could take that fight out for months and months. We know now he's scheduled to be sentenced July 11 on these charges, but his attorney, Todd Blanche, has suggested they want to appeal, and they're going to leave no stone unturned. I guess we should be thinking about some grounds for an appeal.
It was a little controversial that Judge Merchan and the district attorney allowed Stormy Daniels, one of the key witnesses in this case, to testify in great detail about the sexual encounter she had with the former president. And there's also a big question about these jury instructions, as well, that I think we're going to hear a lot more about in the appeals process. I've covered many trials over the years where convictions have been reversed because of jury instructions, and we had to do it all over again. I'm not saying that will happen in this case, but it is possible, and the former president has signaled he does want to target those jury instructions.
DETROW: And in the meantime, there's the sentencing on July 11. There is a possibility of jail time, though most legal experts have said that that's pretty unlikely based on how crimes like this are typically sentenced.
JOHNSON: Yeah. The possibilities vary from probation to four years of incarceration. It's also possible that Judge Merchan could fashion some kind of home confinement or other kind of sentence. Obviously, this is a guy who's running for president and he wants to be able to travel around the country. He's complained bitterly, including earlier today, about the fact that he's been stuck in this courtroom and not campaigning. And so it remains to be seen whether Judge Merchan is going to take the former president's wishes and campaign strategy in mind when he is punished for these offenses.
DETROW: What would you ask a juror if you could talk to a juror?
JOHNSON: I would ask a jury - the members of the jury how quickly they came to this decision, whether they took a vote immediately yesterday when they got this case and why they wanted to hear so much of David Pecker, the former CEO of the company that ran the National Enquirer, why David Pecker's testimony was so compelling. The other key question I would have for them, Scott, is, how much, if at all, did they credit the testimony of Michael Cohen...
DETROW: Right.
JOHNSON: ...The guy who was so close to the former president and whose lawyers - I had branded Michael Cohen the greatest liar of all time.
DETROW: The GLOAT.
JOHNSON: The GLOAT, that's right.
DETROW: Carrie, we have now seen across two impeachment trials, one criminal trial and three other criminal charges playing out. Actually, I'm going to wrap things up with you, Carrie Johnson, because one of our reporters on the scene is now on the line.
SUMMERS: We're joined now by NPR's Andrea Bernstein, who has been in court covering this case. Andrea, tell us what you saw and heard. How did former President Trump look as this verdict was being read?
ANDREA BERNSTEIN, BYLINE: He was absolutely silent, and stuck still. The only reaction I saw for him at all was as he was walking out of the courtroom after it was all over. He gave his son, Eric, who was there, sort of a slap and a handshake, which was a sort of rare gesture of support or even acknowledgment of Eric who's been there almost every day of the trial. And then he walks right out.
SUMMERS: Andrea, you and our colleague Ximena Bustillo have been sitting through this trial for four weeks, bringing us, reporting from inside the courtroom. For either of you, were you surprised by what happened today seeing former president Trump found guilty on all 34 counts?
BERNSTEIN: I really was not. The evidence as laid out by the DA was very extensive. And they sort of said from the get go, Michael Cohen - you don't have to rely on the testimony of Michael Cohen. Former presidential attorney is going to be the one to tie together all the evidence, but he isn't the sole source of it. And they presented this overwhelming number of phone records. They went through them so many times that at one point during summations, Josh Steinglass, the prosecutor, said to the jury, are you still with me, 'cause there were so many records. There were the checks which were sort of obviously false on their face, which former President Trump has described as reimbursements on his various forms. And it was a very tight case.
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DETROW: Thanks to all my NPR colleagues who joined Juana and me.
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DETROW: It's CONSIDER THIS FROM NPR. I'm Scott Detrow.
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