< Dua Lipa's 'Radical Optimism' is loaded with hyper-catchy bangers

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STEPHEN THOMPSON, HOST:

The British singer Dua Lipa has become one of the world's biggest pop stars with a string of radio hits that have each been streamed billions of times. Now she's back with a new set of summertime bangers titled "Radical Optimism." I'm Stephen Thompson, and today we are talking about Dua Lipa's new album on POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR.

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THOMPSON: Joining me today is "Switched On Pop" producer Reanna Cruz. Hey, Reanna.

REANNA CRUZ: Hi, Stephen. How are you?

THOMPSON: Also with us is culture writer and critic Shamira Ibrahim. Hey, Shamira.

SHAMIRA IBRAHIM: Hey, Stephen. Thank you for having me back again.

THOMPSON: It is a joy to have you both here. So Dua Lipa has had a string of massive hits over the last seven years, including "New Rules," "Don't Start Now" and "Levitating." Her current blockbuster is "Houdini."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "HOUDINI")

DUA LIPA: (Singing) They say I come and I go. Tell me all the ways you need me. I'm not here for long. Catch me, or I go Houdini. I come and I go.

THOMPSON: It's the lead single from Dua Lipa's new album "Radical Optimism," which is a sort of concept record about moving through life with a more mature and constructive attitude. But it's also a pretty straightforward collection of hyper-catchy bangers. And heads up, one of those bangers you'll hear today has a curse word in it. We have much to discuss, but I want to go around the table and get a general sense of what y'all think. Reanna, I'm going to start with you. Where do you stand on "Radical Optimism"?

CRUZ: So as a concept - love it. I enjoy Dua Lipa, writ large, and I really like the singles from this record, all three of them - "Houdini," "Training Season" and "Illusion," with the last one, "Illusion," getting massive replay from me.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "ILLUSION")

DUA LIPA: (Singing) I be like, oh, it's amusing. You think I'm going to fall for an illusion.

CRUZ: I was stoked to check out the full record. And I left feeling kind of disappointed, kind of not, just, like, very, very mid on it. None of the songs outside the singles really landed for me. And even then, the singles felt dulled in the larger context of the record.

THOMPSON: Interesting.

CRUZ: The whole record is pleasant to me, you know? Like, I really have no issues with it. I find it very similar to Lorde's "Solar Power," where I was like, good for her.

THOMPSON: Oh.

IBRAHIM: Not good for her.

CRUZ: But, like, happy she's happy, you know? Like, that's what it really comes down to. But I just wish there was more to it, especially as the follow-up to "Future Nostalgia."

THOMPSON: Sure. "Future Nostalgia" - kind of a more, like, lavish, disco-fied (ph)...

CRUZ: Yeah. Yeah.

THOMPSON: ...Production. This is a little scaled back, would you say, in comparison?

CRUZ: Yeah. I mean, I think it's pared back in a lot of ways. I think it's pared back in songwriting. I think it's pared back outside of the singles in the production. Most of the record is, like, very - it's very chill. It's a chiller. It's to lay by the pool in Ibiza. That's it.

THOMPSON: That sounds like a terrible thing to have to do.

(LAUGHTER)

CRUZ: I'd say so.

(LAUGHTER)

THOMPSON: How about you, Shamira?

IBRAHIM: I have very similar thoughts. I'm a big fan of Dua Lipa, the artist, the brand, the constantly vacationing icon. And I was really a huge fan of "Future Nostalgia" when it came out, and the follow-up "Club Future Nostalgia." I think for me, where I land on this is that when "Future Nostalgia" came out, it was such a moment in time. It was 2020. Big disco vibes. Everything felt so fresh about it. People were just kind of wading into this new disco revival, right? Now, it kind of feels like it's four years later. A lot of artists have done their own iteration of the disco soundscape, of bringing back that '80s trend into the modern era.

And so now it feels like she's there kind of lagging in the background as a result, right? It doesn't feel as innovative. It doesn't feel as fresh. The songwrite doesn't feel as compelling. The singles are still singles, and there are a couple of album cuts that really stand out to me, which I'm sure we'll get into. But it kind of feels like disco is falling into yacht rock, which is not necessarily the space I'm looking for, right?

THOMPSON: Yeah. Well, and it's interesting that you mentioned yacht rock. One of her collaborators on this record is Kevin Parker from Tame Impala, who has really, like, made a very, very successful career out of smooth...

CRUZ: Right.

THOMPSON: ...Pop sounds that kind of brush up against yacht rock.

IBRAHIM: Right. That's totally there. And I think part of my fatigue is I came up on, you know, Robin S. I came up on all the big disco divas, the Donna Summers, right? Let's have the booming divas with the big vocals over the actual instrumentals, right? Let's do something compelling, and that will keep you on the four-on-the-floor for a couple of hours, right? Right now, it kind of feels like the pre-game before the club, not the club, exactly, right?

CRUZ: Or post-club...

THOMPSON: OK.

CRUZ: ...You know? The chillout afters.

IBRAHIM: Exactly (laughter).

CRUZ: Yeah.

THOMPSON: (Laughter) It's interesting 'cause I, at first, had a somewhat similar reaction to both of yours, where I thought, like, this is a solid collection of, like, mid-bangers.

IBRAHIM: Right.

THOMPSON: But a couple of outside factors played into my ultimate appreciation of this record. One is that Beyonce released a treatise called "Cowboy Carter"...

IBRAHIM: Right.

THOMPSON: ...Which is like 78, 79...

CRUZ: Yup.

IBRAHIM: Right.

THOMPSON: ...Minutes long. And then a few weeks later, Taylor Swift released "The Tortured Poets Department"...

IBRAHIM: Right.

THOMPSON: ...Which is two hours and two minutes long. This record is 11 songs in 36 minutes, and they are suitable for roller skating. They are summery - or lying by the pool...

IBRAHIM: Right.

THOMPSON: ...In Ibiza, as Reanna said. And for somebody who has felt pop music's bloat in recent months, I really appreciated the hyper-efficiency of this record. And the other thing for me with this album - you mentioned liking the singles, but not necessarily hooking into the album tracks. To me, where this record finally locked in for me was in the last two songs. Let's hear a little bit first of the track "Maria." This is the penultimate song on the record.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "MARIA")

DUA LIPA: (Singing) I know you're somewhere in his heart. Maria. Maria.

THOMPSON: So first of all, you can imagine that (vocalizing), like, getting stuck in your head for days, as it has for me. That song is followed by a song called "Happy For You."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "HAPPY FOR YOU")

DUA LIPA: (Singing) Oh, I must have loved you more than I ever knew. I'm happy for you.

THOMPSON: Thematically, take these songs back-to-back and think about what she's doing on this record. "Maria" is a song sung to her partner's ex, and it is thanking her for her contributions to his life. You made him better. And that could easily be a passive-aggressive message like, thanks for the guy, loser.

(LAUGHTER)

THOMPSON: But it's not at all. It's very gracious, very mature, very thoughtful approach to relationships that I really, really appreciated. And to follow that song immediately with "Happy For You," which is to an ex, basically saying, like, I genuinely revel in your happiness, even though it's without me. One thing I experienced listening to this record the first time or two was, like, I'm not necessarily sure I'm getting radical optimism from this record. Until you get to those last two songs. This is the kind of grown-up, non-grievance-based approach to love that I can really, really get behind in pop songwriting and that, right now, I found myself really craving. I think she's getting at something here. And for me, this album felt mid at first but grew into something I really appreciated.

CRUZ: I'm excited for it to grow on me hypothetically where, like, I think the songs, like, despite not hitting, you know, like, something like "French Exit," you know, I thought about apropos of nothing, right? Like, I was just, like, chilling, and I was like, oh, like, I like that song. And I feel like I'm going to have that reaction with a lot more of the record.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "FRENCH EXIT")

DUA LIPA: (Singing) It's not a broken heart if I don't break it. Goodbye doesn't hurt if I don't say it. And I really hope you'll understand it. Only way to go is a French exit.

CRUZ: What my issue with this mature songwriting is, is that I don't think it necessarily lends itself to hit potential. Another album, and I hate to make this comparison, but, like, it was giving Katy Perry's "Witness" to me at...

IBRAHIM: Oh, no.

CRUZ: ...Times.

IBRAHIM: Not the Katy Perry-fication (ph) of Dua Lipa.

CRUZ: OK, but let me clarify. I love "Witness." It's my favorite Katy Perry album. But the concept behind "Witness" is that Katy Perry is doing, like, conscious pop, you know, where she's attacking pop from a mature standpoint and making these statements about herself and the world around her. And I compared it to "Solar Power" 'cause I felt the same about "Solar Power" - these mature records. And I'm sure this was important for Dua Lipa to make, I just have been left wanting that sort of boom, you know, right out-of-the-gate bangers that we had with something like "Future Nostalgia."

THOMPSON: This is where we should back up, though, and point out "Houdini" has been played on the radio...

IBRAHIM: Ad nauseam.

THOMPSON: ...Eight hundred trillion...

IBRAHIM: Yes.

THOMPSON: ...Times. Like, it is one of the most - I mean, I don't want to say overplayed...

CRUZ: Right.

THOMPSON: ...'Cause I like it. But, like, to me, like, I listen to the radio in the car...

CRUZ: Yeah, yeah.

THOMPSON: ...A lot. And nowadays, when you flip the radio dial, it's just hitting different parts of "Houdini."

IBRAHIM: Right.

CRUZ: I love "Houdini." Like, "Houdini" in my circles has gone multiplatinum.

THOMPSON: Yeah. And "Training Season" is also a big, catchy song.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "TRAINING SEASON")

DUA LIPA: (Singing) You should know I need someone to hold me close, deeper than I've ever known, whose love feels like a rodeo, knows just how to take control. When I'm vulnerable, he's straight-talking to my soul. Conversation overload, got me feeling vertigo.

THOMPSON: She is one of the most reliable hitmakers we have right now.

IBRAHIM: Yeah.

THOMPSON: And I would also push back in terms of, like, there are no other hits, like, there's a song on this record called "These Walls." My ears perked up of like, oh, I better get used to this song.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THESE WALLS")

DUA LIPA: (Singing) If these walls could talk, they'd say, you know, they'd say you're f*****. It's not supposed to hurt this much. Oh, if these walls could talk, they'd tell us to break up.

THOMPSON: First of all, that's about as lyrically hard-hitting (laughter) as this record gets. This is (laughter) - it's like a pre-breakup song, but it's still pretty like, maybe we should break up? But that song, to me, that's a banger.

CRUZ: Yeah. I like it (laughter).

IBRAHIM: The reluctance.

CRUZ: I mean - no, no, I like it. It just - I don't think it...

IBRAHIM: Yeah.

CRUZ: ...Does anything for me. Like, I don't think I'm going to, like, sit down and be like, man, like, let me play that Dua Lipa track I like. That's not "Illusion," "Houdini" or "Training Season."

THOMPSON: OK, but you did just name three songs. There aren't that many pop records that have three big bangers on them (laughter).

CRUZ: So true. So true. You got me.

THOMPSON: I do want to get to everyone's sense of Dua Lipa's place in the pop music landscape because I think she is really interestingly positioned compared to a lot of other artists. We've talked about how, like, she's putting out shorter kind of more singles-oriented projects and not these, like, massive opuses. You know, she's the subject of a very funny meme that I quote all the time about kind of low-effort live performances where the person wrote, go girl, give us nothing.

IBRAHIM: Right.

CRUZ: Awesome.

THOMPSON: Where if you've ever seen Dua Lipa perform, like, she has this very laconic, not exactly movement-forward approach to live performance. And yet, like, she has the most viewed Tiny Desk concert in history with...

IBRAHIM: Wow.

THOMPSON: ...A hundred and twenty-four million views. So clearly, like...

CRUZ: Wow.

THOMPSON: ...Live performance-wise, people are still into her. She contains multitudes, right? Like, an...

IBRAHIM: Right.

THOMPSON: ...Extraordinary amount of effort goes into crafting her songs, and yet she also feels, like, less tryhard and, like, there's a certain hanging back that she does. It feels like she doesn't need to be the main character in our lives. I appreciate that. For me, like, she is filling a very, very useful role in pop music right now.

IBRAHIM: Yeah. You know, I think Dua Lipa, as you pointed out, contains multitudes, right? I think one of the things that's best about her is that she's receptive to feedback - right? - which can be, you know, a gift and a curse, right? You know, where fans can sometimes dictate what their own wants and not think...

THOMPSON: Yeah.

IBRAHIM: ...About the greater spectrum of everything else...

THOMPSON: Yeah.

IBRAHIM: ...Right? But to your point about the go girl, give us nothing, you know, Dua Lipa was known around the time of her debut album, the self-titled project, to be giving, like, I like to call them figurine poses from one mark to the next, right? You know? Like, very modelesque, very, I'm here. I look pretty. The pop music is what gives you my identity. And she actually recently did an interview - I want to say it's for The Guardian - that kind of spoke on that and how it did hurt her feelings to see those remarks from her fans, right? But it also did give her the impetus to continue to push and grow and do more. So that by the time of "Future Nostalgia," no one is comparing her by any means to Beyonce on performance level...

THOMPSON: Right.

IBRAHIM: ...But you saw the increased production effort. You saw her committing to do more choreography, selling the image of the disco queen that comes with the album that you put out, right? And I think that's something that allows her to be resilient through the bumps and grooves of pop fandom, which can be very mercurial, right? You know, one day, everyone is loving you for the single you dropped or the meme you put out, or whatever random quip you may have put out.

The next, everyone is thirsty for the next output. And so, while I may not be as bullish on this project specifically, I think I'm cautiously optimistic for the way that she maintains her relevance in the pop culture and pop music discussion. It's a very saturated field, where you have a handful of artists that are taking up the lion's share of the market, and she continues to make herself relevant in the trends that really generate some of the most interesting pop music that's out today.

Like, to your point, I'm really a big fan of the two-song pairing "Illusion" into "Falling Forever," where she's singing about, you know, being in a relationship that's a little cagey. And the next song falls into talking about the honeymoon phase of a partnership and a courtship and whether or not you would actually be interested in pursuing that romantic, you know, level of interest. And I think that the way that she has done some of the pairings on the songs shows that she's willing to be a little bit more experimental with the duality of different emotional feelings, especially when it comes to romance.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "FALLING FOREVER")

DUA LIPA: (Singing) How long? How long? Can it just keep getting better? Can we keep fallin' forever?

CRUZ: Here's my thing with Dua Lipa. I feel like in the pop landscape, she is kind of chameleonic because she doesn't necessarily have her own identity. It's just the sounds that she's doing where she was doing this kind of electronic pop thing on the self-titled project. "Future Nostalgia" was disco revival. This record feels very, like, '90s, 2000s radio light, you know, whatever sunshine thing she's doing. I do, to your point, think that works for her because she doesn't necessarily, in my opinion, have the outsized personality...

THOMPSON: Right.

CRUZ: ...Of a pop star.

THOMPSON: Right.

CRUZ: You know, like, I watch interviews with her and she's very down to earth. She's very game for whatever. And I think that's the type of pop star that, like you said, lends itself to return investments. You know, like, we're going to be seeing Dua Lipa probably in, like, 10, 15 years, and she's still going to be putting out hits...

THOMPSON: Right.

CRUZ: ...You know, and I think that's something that I really appreciate in this pop landscape where we have a lot of artists that do one or two songs, you know, and then you don't hear from them, or they're big on TikTok and that's it. Dua Lipa can still headline festivals, I think, even when an album like this comes out and it's not necessarily hit potential.

THOMPSON: One of my first critical thoughts listening to this record was I do wish she were a more distinct personality.

IBRAHIM: Yeah.

THOMPSON: When I think of records that I have really loved in this genre in recent years, I think about an album called "Dirt Femme" by Tove Lo, the Swedish pop singer...

CRUZ: Yeah.

THOMPSON: ...Which is kind of trafficking in some of these things, but it, like, it's very distinctly written, and it has a real point of view. I think about, like, "The Rise And Fall Of A Midwest Princess" by Chappell Roan, where, like, Chappell Roan is, like, all persona but also incredible vocal talent. I would have loved it if this record conveyed a little bit more of who she is. She - there is a guarded quality to her persona. But at the same time, I think she has a lane, and I think this record is squarely in that lane. And, I don't know, for me, it just came out at just the right time. It's the beginning of the summer. We're all...

CRUZ: Yeah.

THOMPSON: ...Repositioning ourselves to hopefully enjoy some leisure.

CRUZ: Yeah. Right.

THOMPSON: And, like, an album of, like, very grievance-averse music...

CRUZ: Right.

THOMPSON: ...Was just what I was looking for right now.

IBRAHIM: When you think about the lack of distinct identity - right? - I do think that there's something curious that comes out of that, right? So I may be stricken down for mentioning this - right? - but, you know, obviously, we went - and we experienced Taylor Swift, "The Tortured Poets Department," right? You have all the songs. And one of the things that makes Taylor such a ubiquitous force is that she has now created, like, this universe of lore, right? You know, she's self-referential so that the ballads and the pop records, you're not just exploring it for musicality, but also if you're a fan and have been in that universe for a long time, you're also almost experiencing it like a quest, right? You know, how do you piece together what's happening here?

CRUZ: Right.

IBRAHIM: Who was she referring to here? What is the symbology of Taylor Swift, ultimately, right? Because Dua's pop persona as a celebrity isn't as forward in her personal life. Like, you might know some things like she dated Anwar Hadid or whatever, but when she's doing songs that, if you take a second to listen, are still - continue with heartbreak and love and dealing with crappy men and how to move on and how to deal with deception. All themes that are uniform in a Taylor Swift album. But because she's not as distinct about her brand identity, it doesn't compel you to do the same level of interrogation.

THOMPSON: Right.

IBRAHIM: Not saying that that's a good or bad thing. It's just a distinct thing, right? So these are records that are about going to the club after you got - you know, you finished crying because a man texted you, right? You know? Or they're records about, you know, oh, my God, I'm having that summer crush. Let's see if it lasts more than three weeks. And it evokes that feeling, but it doesn't give you that distinct, personal tie where you would say, oh, who do you think she's talking about? Let me scroll through her Instagram posts and kind of put all the puzzle...

THOMPSON: Right.

IBRAHIM: ...Pieces together. It lends less of an urgency to wanting to listen to her music, considering the current climate of how people view music as puzzle pieces to fit together.

CRUZ: Yeah. And I think that's smart, and I think it's smart that she situated her release date the way that she did. There's a gap in, like, upbeat, pop records that we can consume lightly, you know, in a convertible on the way to the beach.

THOMPSON: Yeah.

CRUZ: Like, that is what this record is designed for, and I respect her for situating it right in the beginning of May as she did.

THOMPSON: All right. Well, I've got to tell you. I'm - I know y'all are mid. I'm here for it.

(LAUGHTER)

IBRAHIM: Come back to me in a month or two. I may have a completely different opinion.

THOMPSON: Nice.

CRUZ: Literally. Hit me back in, like, August after the summer's done, and I'll be like, man, I heard that Dua Lipa record everywhere.

THOMPSON: You're like, what would I have done without that Dua Lipa record?

CRUZ: Right.

IBRAHIM: Exactly.

CRUZ: Literally.

IBRAHIM: Exactly.

CRUZ: Literally.

THOMPSON: All right. Well, we want to know what you think about Dua Lipa's "Radical Optimism." Find us at facebook.com/pchh. That brings us to the end of our show. Reanna Cruz, Shamira Ibrahim, thanks so much for being here.

CRUZ: Thank you, Stephen. Happy to be here.

IBRAHIM: Thank you.

THOMPSON: This episode was produced by Liz Metzger and Hafsa Fathima and edited by Mike Katzif. Our supervising producer is Jessica Reedy, and Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR. I'm Stephen Thompson, and we will see you all tomorrow.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

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