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J.G. Keely's Reviews > Dune
Dune (Dune Chronicles, #1)
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J.G. Keely's review
bookshelves: science-fiction, novel, reviewed, childhood, america, space-opera
Jun 01, 2007
bookshelves: science-fiction, novel, reviewed, childhood, america, space-opera
People often forget that this series is what innovated our modern concept of science fiction (up until Neuromancer and The Martix, at least). Dune took the Space Opera and asked if it might be more than spandex, dildo-shaped rockets, and scantily-clad green women. Herbert created a vast and complex system of ancient spatial politics and peoples, then set them at one another's throats over land, money, and drugs.
Dune is often said to relate to Sci Fi in the same way that Tolkien relates to Fantasy. I'd say that, as far as paradigm shift, this is widely true. Both entered genres generally filled with the odd, childish, and ridiculous and injected a literary sensibility which affected all subsequent authors.
Few will challenge the importance of Star Wars' effect on film and storytelling in general, but without Dune, there would be no Star Wars. Princess Alia, the desert planet, the Spice, the Bene Gesserit, and Leto II all have direct descendants in the movies. It is unfortunate that Lucas seems to have forgotten in these later years that his best genius was pilfered from Herbert, Campbell, and Kurosawa.
Though I have heard that the later books do not capture the same eclectic energy as the first, Dune itself is simply one of the most original and unusual pieces of Sci Fi ever written. Read it, Starship Troopers, Ringworld, Neuromancer, and Snowcrash and you'll know everything you need to about Sci Fi: that you want more.
Dune is often said to relate to Sci Fi in the same way that Tolkien relates to Fantasy. I'd say that, as far as paradigm shift, this is widely true. Both entered genres generally filled with the odd, childish, and ridiculous and injected a literary sensibility which affected all subsequent authors.
Few will challenge the importance of Star Wars' effect on film and storytelling in general, but without Dune, there would be no Star Wars. Princess Alia, the desert planet, the Spice, the Bene Gesserit, and Leto II all have direct descendants in the movies. It is unfortunate that Lucas seems to have forgotten in these later years that his best genius was pilfered from Herbert, Campbell, and Kurosawa.
Though I have heard that the later books do not capture the same eclectic energy as the first, Dune itself is simply one of the most original and unusual pieces of Sci Fi ever written. Read it, Starship Troopers, Ringworld, Neuromancer, and Snowcrash and you'll know everything you need to about Sci Fi: that you want more.
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Reading Progress
Started Reading
January 1, 1998
–
Finished Reading
June 1, 2007
– Shelved
June 1, 2007
– Shelved as:
science-fiction
January 29, 2008
– Shelved as:
novel
June 9, 2009
– Shelved as:
reviewed
May 20, 2010
– Shelved as:
childhood
September 4, 2010
– Shelved as:
america
September 13, 2011
– Shelved as:
space-opera
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rated it 5 stars
Dec 09, 2010 12:19PM
But why only 4 stars? Looking at your review of Dune and your reviewing methodology, I wonder whether it merits less than 5?
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Hmm, good question. It's been a long time since I read it, and what stuck with me was that it was enjoyable, original, and influential. To push it over the top would require some combination of an original writing style, well-developed characters and psychology, and insightful exploration of ideas.
I agree that Herbert has a lot of novel structures in his book, and takes a different tack on sci fi; but when I say 'ideas' in my criteria for ratings, I mean things like political satire, and psychological deconstruction.
Herbert might have these things but unfortunately, my memory of the book isn't strong enough to allow me to say anything concrete about such detailed constructions. I could certainly be swayed if I were presented with a good analysis of the philosophy or philosophies espoused and explored in the book.
Usually, when returning to a book I haven't read in some time, I look for the sort of critical analyses that make these structures clear, but I haven't had a chance to do in-depth research on Dune yet.
Oddly enough I just brought a small book on the philosophies present in Dune.
Ah, curious. Let me know if it's any good.
I just got this book for my birthday. Sounds so interesting! And I love the desert like setting (or at least it sounds desert-like from what I've read about the book). Very different than a lot of sci-fi I've read.
Yeah, it's an interesting vision of what sci fi can be, changed the way a lot of authors approached the genre. I've heard the many, many sequels are not worth going into, but I did enjoy the original.
Keely wrote: "Ah, curious. Let me know if it's any good." While I don't think it was worth the twenty dollar price tag, lol, I do think it outlines a few things that I've missed. Though I do admit I don't usually read the kind of book Dune is. Wish I knew more to read and compare it to.
@Colin: The original six I believe were made by Frank Herbert, but his his son and another author by the name of Brian J Anderson I believe expanded the universe in prequels and sequels. They've driven the title into the ground and are just riding out Frank's fame. But in honesty I can say that the original Dune is worth your time.
I don't know. While I certainly enjoyed the original books by Frank Herbert, and will agree that Brian Herbert and Anderson aren't as intense as Frank's original books, I've found that reading the entire series as a whole, gave me a better overview as to where the last several books were going. When I first read Frank Herbert's books, the last 3 books left me confused and scratching my head. I'm sure his dying didn't help, or else he would have finished the books, but being able to go from prequels right on through made the stories make a whole lot more sense.
Kendra wrote: "I don't know. While I certainly enjoyed the original books by Frank Herbert, and will agree that Brian Herbert and Anderson aren't as intense as Frank's original books, I've found that reading the..."Prequels are all well and good, and it's cool that it does clear up your confusion, but some things felt weird to me.
Especially the books set after the original, where they've (view spoiler)
Yeah, but the original book did start out with the breeding for the 1 great man who would basically be able to know all and see all. Paul couldn't handle it, which is why he went off the deep end. Leto may have tried to make changes, but one could be left to assume that it would come back to fruition. And it definitely did tie up the whole issue with the machines. Otherwise, that was kind of permanently left hanging, and a pointless plot line.
Kendra wrote: "Yeah, but the original book did start out with the breeding for the 1 great man who would basically be able to know all and see all. Paul couldn't handle it, which is why he went off the deep end...."The machines weren't really the focus so much as the historical driving force for humans to push themselves, as see with the Mentats who have computation abilities on the level of said machines. Because of that machines were never a plot line until the two authors turned the plot towards them. It was basically so they could fuse what they did in the prequels with what his father had already created. You can tell by his writing that talking about machines wasn't as important as comparing us to them.
Just wondering, did you look at what I marked as spoiler? I just didn't want everyone in the world to see that.
Unlike Paul, Leto saw the Golden Path and went for it. I can't speak for a plot that wasn't finished b the original author because his son changed and wrote in things as he saw fit.
But I am happy you like them. And that's cool.
I did see that one you marked as a spoiler and thought that part of the plot line was odd. Kind of something they tossed in and didn't flow quite as well. I do somewhat agree with you on the father's version of the Duniverse versus the son. Though I think I read somewhere that the son found all these notes and such on how Frank wished to finish the story, and the machines were involved. Road To Dune maybe? And apologies for the delay. You're response came in after I'd logged off for the afternoon, and I just got home from work. :-)
Yeah, he left him some notes, I just wish he left him an outline instead. We don't know really know how many he left for Brandon or what they detailed.I never thought of the Road to Dune as that. Don't know why. It does make allot of sense.
Well, Road to Dune it the biography of Frank Herbert, written by his son. Also had a couple short stories, kind of pre-writings of Dune, before Dune as we know it came out.
Neuromancer is pretty much an homage to Alfred Bester's "The Stars my Destination" written decades earlier. It stands with Dune as one of the greatest works of sci-fi.
Yeah, Neuromancer is another radically influential book. I actually just got a copy of 'The Stars My Destination' after hearing about it for years. Looking forward to it.
I love this novel. I love it's concept of an intergalactic empire and I love the fact that no other Science Fiction authors (that I heard of at least) has attempted to create a carbon copy of this book as some have for the Lord of the Rings.
I was just wondering though, are there any books you could tell that follows this books style? Perhaps not in the most distinctive way but any books would be fine
I was just wondering though, are there any books you could tell that follows this books style? Perhaps not in the most distinctive way but any books would be fine
Hmm, good question. I'm not as familiar with sci fi as I am with fantasy, but I could mention a few things. There's LeGuin's Hainish Cycle, the Berserker series by Saberhagen, Starship Troopers and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Heinlein, Jack Vance's work, and Philip Jose Farmer's World of Tiers.Herbert was also inspired by the John Carter of Mars books by E.R. Burroughs, Asimov's Foundation series, and it's not hard to see the connections.
Of course, the entire Star Wars universe is based off of Dune (fun comparison here), and there are a lot of books written based on that, though I've never read any of them.
If you haven't read it, one of my favorite sci fi books is still Snow Crash, though it's cyberpunk.
Thanks, I have Foundation and A Princess of Mars sitting on my bookshelf actually.
Dune is one of the books that I wanted to like so much but in the end didn't. I completely agree that Herbert's work did have a huge influence on the scifi genre. I am pretty sure that I will try Dune again at some point. Maybe I just need more than one read to really enjoy it.
I actually did better with Dune the second time around. Enjoyed the movie originally, thought the book was okay, confused as all get out about the rest of the books especially with as abruptly as they originally ended.It wasn't until years later when I started with the prequels that I really got the depth and pleasure of the whole thing.
I've been advocating square rockets for years.
Have you ever heard of Foundation. This trilogy actually preceded Dune in creating a complex, interstellar empire. However, his empire did not resemble an early European feudal system.
Yeah, I know of it, haven't read it yet, though.
While I admire your viewpoint and I so see your reasons for rating Dune the way you did, I have to say that as a book it's overrated.I mean, historical and influential value left aside, it has quiet a few narrative and structural holes. Look at the chapters from princess for example: they are "spoiling" the story development as the reader knows how it's going to end. You could argue that this motivates the reader, further, in order to see what the culmination will be.
Yet, as it happens, the story has plot holes, the characters are weak, especially the villains who are ridiculous in a 60's way, and the conclusion left me disappointed as there was no character development and all the hype for world building was only for 3 houses(out of innumerable), which the story doesn't delve deep into the real politics.
I am well aware of the importance of this book and in how much it innovated science fiction but still this in not a reason to not recognize it's faults and "glorifying" it. The same applies to fantasy and Tolkien, who despite not being either the father or innovator of fantasy fiction, he did many things wrong like Herbert.
Just read it and I'm pretty much in the same vein as Kuro_no above. Disappointing book overall and I rather called it fantasy than Science Fiction.
Not technically correct that this does not qualify as a sci-fi--as it has indeed innovative ideas for the genre--but it's not the sort of Sci-fi of Verne, Orwell, or Aasimov. To be clear I prefer Herbert's work more than some of the other authors, just I see it more as a metaphorical allegory than a pure sci-fi project. Which, arguably, could be a good thing.
Yet you still only gave it three (3) stars? Surely a seminal work like this rates at least four (4)? ;)
I read Dune when I was a kid in the early 70s, and it seemed to me absolutely phenomenal at the time. But I was a kid. And it was the 70s. A recent re-read made me realize its pretty hokey. It was the first Sci Fi to converge with Fantasy, and was definitely a seminal work for the combined genre. But I agree that the Foundation books, indeed many works by Asimov, Heinlein, AC Clarke, LeGuin, even Adams and Vonnegut are far superior and influential in important ways.
Robin wrote: "I read Dune when I was a kid in the early 70s, and it seemed to me absolutely phenomenal at the time. But I was a kid. And it was the 70s. A recent re-read made me realize its pretty hokey. It was ..."Dune is one of the few books I've read several times, at different points in my life. I read it as a child, in uni, and as an adult at least twice. Each time I've read it, its been different.
The last time I read it, I found pleasure in it as sociology and not fiction. Reading between-the-lines you can see what a different world the States was in 1965.
Charles, I love that! Great way to read it, and it’s making me want look at it again through that lens.
@Charles, interesting viewpoint! I also found it an underwhelming read and I hadn’t considered it from that perspective.
Tanvi wrote: "@Charles, interesting viewpoint! I also found it an underwhelming read and I hadn’t considered it from that perspective."I was discussing this this weekend. Dune has a heavy ecology theme. Its publication pre-dated the first Earth Day by only 5-years.
Awareness of the ecology in The States in 1965 was rudimentary compared to today. At the time it was broadly called Conservation. That was still strongly related to resource extraction and autarchy . Then there was the Highway Beautification Act (HBA), passed in the Senate 1965. Although it really had to do with trash and unsightly industrial sites, it showed high-level political change toward viewing the environment.
I suspect the book was influenced by the increasing awareness of the environment and eventually had some affect on environmental awareness, particularly toward desertification.
You called it "one of the most original and unusual pieces of Sci Fi ever written", and gave it 3 stars. I think you may need to recalibrate your ratings.The only gripe I have against Dune is that it described a political and economic system much less complex than that of any historical empire on Earth--it's more on the scale of the Balkans--and spread it out across planets to make it seem bigger, with the result that an entire planet in Dune is about as complex as, say, the city of Kosovo today.
Haven’t heard of Ring World yet. Reading Dune currently and I’ve read the rest on your list. Necromacer is like nothing else.
Your review is glowing, but you have it at three stars?
I often feel people who dont like this book are usually pining for less words and more dildo shaped rockets
You laud it as a seminal work and give it three stars? Then you write all this litero-babble about how it would need to meet all this criteria, blah, blah, blah. My rating of your blustering hogwash is one half to one star, depending on whether...
Its historical importance has no bearing on whether it is a good book.
How can anyone read Dune without following up with the later books? It ends on a cliff-hanger, so many unresolved loose threads; What will come of Princess Alia, Will the Jihad go ahead? Dune feels like the first chapter of a larger story arch, so many things that I have heard mentioned in the Dune lore and discussions online aren't in this first chapter of the story.
