Taylor Jenkins Reid Is Back and Playing in the Zone

She’s not friendly. She’s not likable. And she’s not going away.
 
Readers first met Carrie Soto in Taylor Jenkins Reid’s Malibu Rising, the other woman to Nina Riva’s husband during a messy divorce and also the best tennis player in the world. 
 
Carrie decides to come out of her tennis retirement when rival Nicki Chan ties her record for Slams. To prove she is still the best, Carrie sets out to play one more Grand Slam tour—the Australian Open, the French Open, Wimbledon, and the U.S. Open—and will ultimately face Chan at the U.S. Open with everything on the line.
 
Carrie Soto Is Back is a novel about family, love, friendship, female ambition, winning, and the elusive call of when enough is enough.

Author Taylor Jenkins Reid spoke to Goodreads contributor April Umminger about her latest. Their conversation has been edited.

  Goodreads: I enjoyed Carrie Soto Is Back tremendously and have enjoyed your other books. It’s got such strong female characters, and there are a lot of themes at play. It's about an athlete who is past her prime, it's a family story, it’s a love story, it’s a story of perspective and friendship. What would you say this book is about? 

Taylor Jenkins Reid: It’s always hard to narrow it down to one thing, but I will say that, in addition to those things that you said, it is about a woman who the world just wants to go away. And it is about a father and a daughter. And it's a love story. And it's about excellence and the pursuit of excellence at what cost. 
 
But it's also very, very much about the question “When is enough enough?” 
 
We have this idea of female ambition, and ambition is seen as a good thing. And it is a good thing, but it also has to be kept in perspective. And that was what I really wanted to explore with Carrie is at what point are you able to lay down your sword? Or are some people never able to do that? And to me, Carrie is an interesting character because she's one of the first people that I could see, perhaps, never doing that. 

GR: How did you come up with the character of Carrie Soto? Is she based off of other tennis players? When I was reading this book, I thought the Williams sisters—was that coincidental, or did that play into the development of this book at all? 

TJR: It's not coincidental. My incredible respect for the Williams sisters is part of what makes me interested in tennis. I wouldn't write a book about tennis without the influence of just the absolute glory that has been their journey, but also specifically Serena's quest to get as many Grand Slam titles as she has managed to do. 
 
To me, what's interesting about sports is the narrative. I'm not really a sports person. What I'm interested in is the story that is being put forth and the narrative for the athletes. Tennis is uniquely interesting to me because it is a solo game. We have athletes out there on the court by themselves, controlling their career. They have a team behind them, but ultimately, when it comes down to who needs to get it done, it's on one person's shoulders. 
 
That question of, Are they going to do it? Can they hit this next record? What is the record that they're looking for? They lost today, why do we think that is, what's going on in their personal life? 
 
When it comes to any famous person, it's not the facts I am interested in as much as the story that is being told. Carrie Soto comes from that. The Williams sisters have influenced her only in that they have made me realize how strong and compelling a tennis story can be. 
 
But Carrie Soto is totally different. There are a number of athletes that I read about: the Williams sisters, Andre Agassi, Steffi Graf, Martina Navratilova, Chris Evert, Billie Jean King. I read about a lot of different people before I started to understand exactly who Carrie was as an athlete. 

GR: How did you get the idea for this book? It is similar and a continuation of some of your other books? 

TJR: When I was writing Malibu Rising, I knew the main character, Nina Riva, was going to be going through a public and embarrassing separation with her husband. I had this question of “OK, so who is her husband?” 
 
What I came to was the idea that he is a tennis star. In my first and even second drafts, I had him as the nice guy of tennis. He's the number one ATP player. Then in further drafts, he has left Nina for someone that perhaps is more like him, which will be the number one WTA player in the world at that time, who I made Carrie Soto. Carrie is in Malibu Rising; that is where she started. 
 
As I was doing further drafts, I realized I didn't know enough about tennis to really get across what I was trying to about Brandon. So I read Andre Agassi’s Open. That was my research. I was getting toward the end of that book, and I was doing edits on it, and I was rereading Open, and I thought, “Man, it would just be so much fun if I could make essentially a fake version of this book,” which was not dissimilar to when I was reading Ava Gardner’s The Secret Conversations and thought, “Oh, it'd be so much fun to make a fake version of this,” which led to The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo. 
I thought, “I don't want to write about Brandon Randall. I don't find him interesting enough. But wait a minute, maybe Carrie Soto is who this story is about.” 
 
Once I figured that out, I immediately dashed off an email to my editor and then I was sold, I was smitten. And that was the direction I was going. 


GR: It's interesting what you just said about The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo. People always think that's always about Elizabeth Taylor, but Ava Gardner was the inspiration?

TJR: You know, the germ comes from one particular place, but the character has to come from 1,000 different places. Evelyn Hugo started because I was really taken with this posthumous Ava Gardner biography. Then I do research on Elizabeth Taylor and I do research on Rita Hayworth and I do research on Joan Crawford and Monty Clift, and Lana Turner, and Marilyn Monroe, and somewhere in there, you hope that you find something original and a character that stands on its own. And that's what I did with Carrie Soto as well.

GR: So Taylor, how did you start writing? 

TJR: It took me a little while to figure out what I wanted to do. I've always been a film and television person. I always had the intention of moving out to L.A. and working in Hollywood. And I did that. And I found that it wasn't quite what I thought it was going to be. 
 
I had started in feature film casting, which was a really fun job, but I felt pulled toward having more control over who the characters were, what the stories were that we were telling. I felt more drawn to creating the story and then also hoping to one day have the fun of being able to cast it as well. 
 
The most obvious thing would have been if I just started writing screenplays, but I wanted to write novels. I started tinkering away on a novel, and I almost didn't finish it, because why did I think anybody would want to hear what I have to say? 
 
But I had met this guy, who eventually turned out to be my husband, and I let him read the first half of the story. Our relationship was very new and very exciting, and everything that he said meant so much to me. He read the first part of this book and said, “You have to finish this book.” So I finished it, and the journey of writing books began. 

GR: How did you pick tennis? Do you play tennis? Are you an athlete? 

TJR: No, I don't think anybody's going to confuse me for an athlete. I really am out of my zone here. It's like I said: It's about the narrative. If you want to write about human excellence, sports are one of the best ways to do that. 
 
What's interesting about tennis is that there's nowhere to hide, which is to say there are a lot of athletes that are on a team. And it's about teamwork. It's about cooperation. And all that's great. But what I'm interested in is, when you get on the court, did you show up today? Can you do it? Do you have the tools that you need today? Is it an off day? Is that a good day? Everything is on your shoulders. 
 
I am sure that it is not an accident that I'm drawn to that narrative, because it's not dissimilar to that of a novelist. There's a lot of forms of storytelling. Hollywood is a much more collaborative form of storytelling, where it's a team effort. 
 
A novelist is—I have people that I rely on, but ultimately, it lives or dies based on the work that I did. And if people don't like the book, it's my name. I am sure that on a subconscious level, that is why I'm more drawn to tennis than a team sport to write about. It also makes the stakes become so high. All Carrie has whether she wins or loses is what she can do with her own body. 

GR: Something that I really liked about the novel was these moments of matches where Carrie gets the hum in her bones. Do you get that as a writer as well? How did that come to you, and what does that mean? 

TJR: I love that you bring that up because it was a really fun part of the story to me.

GR: I think it's relatable in everyone's life, where you will have this moment of zen and know that you’ve got this, whatever “this” may be.

TJR: And it manifests in different ways. I've never had it on any kind of sports court in my life, but there are times when I'm writing and I can feel that I am on the right track. I suddenly feel like my self-consciousness goes away. 
 
The “self one” and “self two” thing comes from The Inner Game of Tennis. I feel that in writing, self one goes away, self-consciousness is gone. I'm just able to be, I am fully present, and there is nothing blocking me from engaging fully with the world around me. I definitely get it as a writer. It's that tingle, this sense that you're on the right track. 
 
For Carrie, it manifests more in her body than for someone else. I want Carrie to be someone who lives in her body, who is aware of the feelings in her body at all times. That is what makes Carrie who she is. 

GR: There is ultimately a friendship that comes out of this intense rivalry between Carrie and Nicki. When enough is enough, is the next evolution to pull someone up?

TJR: I think it's really interesting to interrogate the relationships that women have in direct competition to each other. We've taken a really reductionist view of it. There are so many stereotypes about it in terms of, “Oh, it's a catfight,” or they're manipulative of each other, or they're out to get each other. There is much more nuance to male rivalries in the way that they're presented. They have quirks and complexities. And they're rendered in these fully complicated ways. 
 
What I was interested in with Carrie and Nicki is to show all sides of this, which is to say would Carrie Soto stab Nicki Chan in the back? Absolutely. Do I think Nicki would do it to Carrie? Absolutely. Do I think they enjoy destroying each other? Yes. Do I think they're capable of manipulating each other? Yes. 
 
That's what's fun about it to me, but at the same time, do they respect one another? Do they ultimately feel that they are made better by the other? A resounding yes. 
 
One of the things I'm always trying to do with every book is just put forward one other way to be. With Carrie and Nicki, that question of what does it look like when two women both want the same thing and only one can have it? 

GR: One of the moments in the book that struck me was when Carrie is trying to find people to play with her and no one wants to play with her. 

TJR: What was very important to me in this book is that it is the story of a woman that nobody really likes, and they don't like her for a good reason. I don't want to put forth this idea that everyone thinks she's unlikable, but it's just because she's ambitious and people can't handle female ambition. I think that's absolutely true, but I would like to push us one step past that, which is “what if she's really, sincerely not likable?” 
 
Nobody likes her. And when they’re listing the players that turn her down to practice, her agent comes back with some pretty good points. “You were really rude to this person. You said that it was incredibly easy to beat them,” which you did not need to say. So they don't want to play with you. 
 
What's interesting about Carrie is she's a very stunted person. One of the things she needs to learn is that it is nice to have people around you, and you do need to find a softer part of yourself and a warmer part of yourself in order to bond with other people. That's something she's learning quite late in life. 

GR: Carrie and her father have a very close relationship in the book with some surprising turns. Did you plan their course when you started writing the book, or did it evolve as you were writing for her character development? 

TJR: It was there from the beginning. I've seen the dad/coach who is mean, who drives the child to too great of a length, who pushes too hard, who says “it's success over everything.” 
 
What I was more interested in is a father who tried really, really hard to say the right things, who tried to give tennis to his daughter as a gift, whose heart was in the right place. But he was too broken to understand that some of the things he was saying were not helping and were setting Carrie on a certain path. 
 
What I wanted to set up was that, ultimately, this year is a reckoning of those tiny, consistent miscommunications. 
 
This story, for Carrie, is not just can she go take back her record? It's also an opportunity for her and her father to say the things that they never said to each other. And once that happens, can she change? 

GR: That is a fascinating question you're asking. To circle back on what you mentioned and a question raised in the book, what are the records that matter? 

TJR: Here again is where Carrie Soto is dealing with something that I'm dealing with. At the same time, I'm looking to Serena Williams to see what it must feel like when you reach that level of excellence. 
 
We don't know what Serena Williams wants. She hasn't formally said it. A lot of the narrative that has been written about her for the past couple of years is that she wants another Grand Slam. She wants to hit that record that was made by Margaret Court. But Margaret Court's record was not during the U.S. Open era. Every article I've read about it assumes that's what Serena wants. Maybe I just missed it, but I haven't read an article where Serena says she wants that. 
 
I think it's undeniable that Serena Williams is the greatest of all time. So what must it feel like when that is true, but it's true in the same amorphous way. Do you want something definitive that nobody can break apart? 
 
I knew that for Carrie, a general idea was never going to be enough. She chose the number of Grand Slam titles, and she's not going to let that go. 
 
But I don't know how much it matters. You choose what matters. As an author, all I ever wanted was for someone to read my book and feel less alone. And that happened. For me, I got a beautiful email from someone talking about a book I had written that helped them through their grief. So I've done what I came here to do. So why am I still doing it? What's the goal? 
 
I know my goal for myself, which is I love what I do. I'm not going to stop doing it, because it makes me really happy. But do you need to move the goalposts? I don't know. I don't have an answer to that. Carrie does. Carrie is going to constantly move the goalposts at all times because ultimately, she doesn't know what to do if she's not climbing a mountain. 

GR: You structured this book with the comeback Slams. Which one is your favorite? 

TJR: Wimbledon, no question. 
 
In trying to figure out what sort of player Carrie is, I had to figure out what her best surface would be. When I started looking into some of my favorite tennis players, the difference between Federer and Nadal really called out to me this idea that Carrie, in terms of her play style, could be some version of Federer, and that Nicki is some version of Nadal was very interesting to me. Ultimately, Carrie is a grass court player. That's her best one. Then if you make Nicki from London, doesn't that twist the knife?

GR: How do you do your research? 

TJR: Once I know the world that I'm going into, I set about four to six weeks where my only job all day, every day is research. So I am reading biographies of people, I'm going down Wikipedia, holes, I'm watching movies that take place in that same world. That's where the story starts to come together. The real story doesn't take shape until I have thrown myself into that world. With every book, the most fun part is the beginning. 

GR: What books are you reading now? And what were the best-in-class books that you called upon for researching this novel? 

TJR: I am currently reading Siren Queen by Nghi Vo, which I just started but she already has some sentences in here where I'm just like, “Oh, man, I think I'm gonna love this book. I'm also reading Klara and the Sun, which I’m also loving, and I’m also reading The Year of Magical Thinking, by Joan Didion. I'm reading all of those at different times for various reasons. 
 
When it came to my research, the book doesn't exist without Andre Agassi's Open. It is the blueprint for what I wanted to do. The Inner Game of Tennis was very influential, and just as a person, there are parts of this that apply to how you get through life and any obstacle. 
 
I really loved David Foster Wallace on tennis—it's called String Theory. It's a collection of his essays about tennis. I found certain parts of it incredibly good at articulating how tennis is one thing in the concrete, but it becomes so much bigger and more meaningful in the abstract.
 
Billie Jean King's All In. And then the last one that was really helpful for me was this book called Serena. It is a graphic biography of Serena Williams. There are basically a number of graphs in the book that pull together Serena Williams’ stats and was very helpful for me in terms of what Carrie or Nicki’s stats would be. 
 
One of the things that was incredibly important to me in writing Carrie Soto was that the timeline predates the Williams sisters, and that they don't match or exceed any significant record set by Serena Williams. 
 
I wanted to make sure that I am not replacing Serena Williams and Venus Williams. This book stops before their reign begins. We can go on to assume that when the Williams sisters show up, the things that Carrie and Nicki have achieved, the Williams sisters come in and take the baton and lead tennis even farther into the future. 

GR: Couple more quick questions. Have you ever played tennis? Do you play tennis? 

TJR: I have played tennis. I would not call myself an avid tennis player. But I do love to play tennis. I'm very bad at it. Unlike Carrie, my joy is not set on winning. I just like to play. 

GR: Who is your favorite player, male or female? 

TJR: I am the most invested in Serena Williams. If there is a headline about Serena Williams, I am reading it. I'm also incredibly taken with Naomi Osaka and Coco Gauff. 

GR: What is it about them? 

TJR: Osaka is interesting because she's already changing what we can expect from tennis players. She's drawing boundaries that nobody's ever drawn before. When it comes to Coco Gauff, these are young players who are doing really interesting things, and I'm just going to be watching to see what happens next for them. The future of tennis is looking very interesting if it's being led by people like Naomi Osaka and Coco Gauff. 

GR: Last question: What would you say is the moral of the story? What do you hope readers take from Carrie Soto Is Back? 

TJR: If they're going to take away one thing, it would be to ask themselves what else are you living for, except work? What else is important in your life? Especially as Americans, we're very work focused. I'm trying to be less so. 

GR: Is there anything else that readers should know about you or this book? 

TJR: Just that I absolutely love my job. And I get to do it because people show up and read these books. I am endlessly grateful for the support and also every person who's gone out and read one of my stories.