Apple Approves Epic Games Store for iPhone and iPad in EU

[deevey]

I don't know what backwoods part of the US you got your license in (oh, wait, wasn't it USA where the driving test is just a quick drive around cones in a fenced area?), but at least in Europe, the first thing they teach you during your driving lessons is to adapt to the situation individually, doesn't matter what the sign says.

That said, if someone is standing in the middle of the road or crossing the road on red, what do you do? run them over or crash into them?
Also, if someone ignores your right of way, do you do the same? In countries like Germany and Switzerland, people like you are taken off the road in no time at all...

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Spoiler: With people like you, I'm not surprised that you have 2-3 times as many deaths on average as Europe...

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Huh? I’m not American! I'm from one of the countries with the least amount of fatalities (in Europe). Secondly I've been driving long enough and I'm savvy enough not to trust that every other car on the road is mechanically sound, or their drivers have the skills necessary for anything more that a trip to the shopping mall and back.

I’ve driven on many roads, in many parts of the world under some of the harshest conditions. In some of places, road signs are treated as little more than a suggestion and some have none at all - I'm plenty "adaptive" and comfortable with my driving thank you very much.

But just because I’m a decent driver and I am comfortable driving in all conditions regardless of the car or road signage I'm not under some illusion that other drivers are on the same level - most are not (and by the way, Europe is no magical exception). There is still no reason to ignore roadsigns or speed limits when posted - this helps safeguard everyone, regardless of skill level.

 

[Manzanito]

1) Will give you the EU forced Apple to provide third party app stores. I don’t think that’s a good thing, but I know I’m in a minority here on that.
2) Apple was clearly moving this direction already, but I guess you can argue the EU moved up the timeline a bit
3) Nope. Not the EU.

Features the EU now doesn’t get because of the incredibly flawed DMA

But that has been the case for like forever. I mean Apple not rolling out features at the same time in every region.

They can claim it’s due to dma, but that would achieve nothing. No one is about to start a riot over here so we get access to apple’s ai.

Besides, if apple’s products aren’t competitive with other manufacturer’s, it will only hurt apple’s sales, so it’s not a wise thing to do.

 

[surferfb]

Besides, if apple’s products aren’t competitive with other manufacturer’s, it will only hurt apple’s sales, so it’s not a wise thing to do.

Which is why I think everyone screaming Apple is having a temper tantrum about the DMA and that's why they're not allowing these features isn't thinking clearly. Apple doesn't want to fork its code base, wants to make the best products possible, wants to be better than the competitors. If they are saying they can't offer these features due to the DMA then they aren't lying. I'd argue the text of the DMA makes it really clear that these types of features would have to be opened up in a way that Apple isn't ready or isn't willing to do.

That's not to same that they don't come later, but I don't know why anyone is shocked that Apple wouldn't want to be forced into giving third parties access to everything Apple AI will have access too.

 

[Manzanito]

Which is why I think everyone screaming Apple is having a temper tantrum about the DMA and that's why they're not allowing these features isn't thinking clearly. Apple doesn't want to fork its code base, wants to make the best products possible, wants to be better than the competitors. If they are saying they can't offer these features due to the DMA then they aren't lying. I'd argue the text of the DMA makes it really clear that these types of features would have to be opened up in a way that Apple isn't ready or isn't willing to do.

That's not to same that they don't come later, but I don't know why anyone is shocked that Apple wouldn't want to be forced into giving third parties access to everything Apple AI will have access too.

I’m sure apple isn’t happy with many things the chinese government asks, but they also comply.

Nobody is shocked apple doesn’t want to.

 

[PeterKeller]

Tim Sweeny says their market share is 15% with steam having 85%, so with a couple of good years maybe they can get to Apple's 27% market share in Europe and then get to be a gatekeeper!

You need to read more about the European law. It's not based on the Sherman act.

 

[surferfb]

You need to read more about the European law. It's not based on the Sherman act.

I am very well acquainted with the European law, I've read it several times, read a ton of analysis about it, and been debating others about it for weeks on MacRumors now. Which is why I made the joke

 

[Joshuaorange]

Is Epic a gatekeeper defined under European Law?

Or are you just making up things now?

Gatekeeping is gatekeeping period. You’re a hypocrite if you fight for access to a marketplace then deny access to your own marketplace. European law ethically doesn’t matter.

 

[surferfb]

I’m sure apple isn’t happy with many things the chinese government asks, but they also comply.

Nobody is shocked apple doesn’t want to.

Let me rephrase. I am not sure why anyone is shocked Apple would choose to not offer Apple Intelligence to EU citizens (if they actually even CAN offer it, which is actually an open question based on the text of the DMA) rather than be forced to allow third parties like Google and Meta to have access to the types of sensitive data Apple AI has access to.

But we're getting off topic - back to Epic and Apple!

 

[Hessian]

Last I saw, iPhones were the property of their purchasers, not Apple. You can **** right off with the idea that Apple owns me as their customer.

No... They don't own you.

They own the intellectual property called Apple iOS. You have an EULA (End User License Agreement). What this means is you don't own iOS and never will. You have the permission and licenses to operate it. Same goes for Windows, Xbox, Playstation, and pretty much any other application/OS/software/game/console/etc.

It is the same reason I can't simply sell Fortnite skins to people off a website, or direct to market an Xbox game. Paying $50 for an app doesn't give me the right to monetize someone else's software. Just because you have a license doesn't mean you "own" it.

You can mod the hardware and void the warranty, you can mod the software and be in breach of the EULA. Does that mean they "own" you "as their customer"? I don't think so.

It may disturb some to hear this, but paying $1,000 for a phone doesn't grant you the right to monetize someone else's trillion dollar ecosystem. They own the sole ability to monetize their platform. You can use that tool to monetize other things, like making videos, writing books, performing work at a job. Apple doesn't own what you create, but you don't own what they create, you have a license.

 

[Abazigal]

Besides, if apple’s products aren’t competitive with other manufacturer’s, it will only hurt apple’s sales, so it’s not a wise thing to do.

Ben Thompson makes an interesting argument that the regulation may not have that much of an impact on Apple in the long run (suggesting Apple will ultimately find a way to manage the demands of the DMA on its terms), but also neuter new entrants to the point where there simply may not end up being any new (and meaningful) competition to Apple.

The end result could simply be worse products for the citizens in the EU overall (in the form of features that either come late or never come at all), at the same or higher prices (to offset the costs of adhering to the DMA). What that choice is there when all companies would presumably be subject to the same rules?

We will see.

 

[breenmask]

Let other people have choice.

I already chose a phone that has only 1 App Store that has all the apps I use.

"But you can continue using that 1 App Store while others can use other app stores"

Not unless the app I currently use leaves the App Store

"That has never happened before"

It has happened plenty of times on the Mac App Store. If people are going to be using the Mac App Store as an example of "Apple already allows side loading on the Mac, so why not iOS?", they'll have to agree that apps will leave the iOS App Store, something I did not sign up for when I bought into the iPhone ecosystem. Meanwhile, people have bought into the 1 App Store expectation and are demanding by law to change it. Tell me how that is fair.

 

[thefourthpope]

I already chose a phone that has only 1 App Store that has all the apps I use.

"But you can continue using that 1 App Store while others can use other app stores"

Not unless the app I currently use leaves the App Store

"That has never happened before"

It has happened plenty of times on the Mac App Store. If people are going to be using the Mac App Store as an example of "Apple already allows side loading on the Mac, so why not iOS?", they'll have to agree that apps will leave the iOS App Store, something I did not sign up for when I bought into the iPhone ecosystem. Meanwhile, people have bought into the 1 App Store expectation and are demanding by law to change it. Tell me how that is fair.

Fair will never be fair for all people.

In my case it’s a situation where I only download outside the Mac App Store with cause and following due diligence. It would be the same here. In my case I don’t consider the single iOS App Store to be part of my purchase of a device.

I started on iPhone Gen 1 not even expecting to be able to install any additional apps. Then Apple added the App Store and I liked it and used it because it generally offers a sense of security and quality. But, back to the Mac App Store comparison, I don’t expect to be upset if I can find secure, high-quality applications in other places, if I want.

 

[Manzanito]

Ben Thompson makes an interesting argument that the regulation may not have that much of an impact on Apple in the long run (suggesting Apple will ultimately find a way to manage the demands of the DMA on its terms), but also neuter new entrants to the point where there simply may not end up being any new (and meaningful) competition to Apple.

The end result could simply be worse products for the citizens in the EU overall (in the form of features that either come late or never come at all), at the same or higher prices (to offset the costs of adhering to the DMA). What that choice is there when all companies would presumably be subject to the same rules?

We will see.

The argument that apple will somehow find a way to follow the letter of the law but not the spirit has been proven wrong so far. If that happens then us, the remaining apple users, will switch to android.

Or maybe apple will begin complying in good faith. At their prices the one thing they can not do is offer a worse product, effectively negating the ability to sideload but also holding back new features to teach us a lesson.

 

[Hessian]

The argument that apple will somehow find a way to follow the letter of the law but not the spirit has been proven wrong so far. If that happens then us, the remaining apple users, will switch to android.

Or maybe apple will begin complying in good faith. At their prices the one thing they can not do is offer a worse product, effectively negating the ability to sideload but also holding back new features to teach us a lesson.

I was kind of hoping they would pull an Apple Watch like move and just disable the feature. Kill ALL app stores on iOS 🤣 in EU (roll back to v1 iOS baby) and see how quickly they go full viva France on their ruling class of lawgivers lol

 

[PeterKeller]

Gatekeeping is gatekeeping period. You’re a hypocrite if you fight for access to a marketplace then deny access to your own marketplace. European law ethically doesn’t matter.

"European law ethically doesn't matter."

Okay then, so we're not talking about reality, we're talking about your feels.

 

[Joshuaorange]

"European law ethically doesn't matter."

Okay then, so we're not talking about reality, we're talking about your feels.

No it’s not about feels. Laws don’t often align with ethics. In 1935 Germany made laws declaring Jews different from other people. We all know how that turned out. Or was that not reality?

 

[Joshuaorange]

The argument that apple will somehow find a way to follow the letter of the law but not the spirit has been proven wrong so far. If that happens then us, the remaining apple users, will switch to android.

Or maybe apple will begin complying in good faith. At their prices the one thing they can not do is offer a worse product, effectively negating the ability to sideload but also holding back new features to teach us a lesson.

I will never use android. You don’t speak for anyone but yourself.

 

[PeterKeller]

No it’s not about feels. Laws don’t often align with ethics. In 1935 Germany made laws declaring Jews different from other people. We all know how that turned out. Or was that not reality?

Wow, congrats. You just proved Godwin's law.

 

[breenmask]

Fair will never be fair for all people.

In my case it’s a situation where I only download outside the Mac App Store with cause and following due diligence. It would be the same here. In my case I don’t consider the single iOS App Store to be part of my purchase of a device.

I started on iPhone Gen 1 not even expecting to be able to install any additional apps. Then Apple added the App Store and I liked it and used it because it generally offers a sense of security and quality. But, back to the Mac App Store comparison, I don’t expect to be upset if I can find secure, high-quality applications in other places, if I want.

Upset?

You continued to buy iPhones with the expectation of using a single App Store just as much as you continued to buy a Mac with the expectation of installing applications in other places.

If you were unhappy with this, you would have bought a different device. That is fair for all people.

It is not fair that I bought thousands of apps from the App Store only for the apps to leave the App Store because people were unhappy *after* they purchased the iPhone that they couldn't install from outside the App Store.

 

[Joshuaorange]

Wow, congrats. You just proved Godwin's law.

What a stupid concept to hang your argument on. An antique meme of all things. 👎

 

[Manzanito]

I will never use android. You don’t speak for anyone but yourself.

Don’t take it so hard. I don’t see myself switching to android either, unless when the time comes to renew my phone apple’s offering is patently worse, which could happen if they start withholding features on purpose. In that case I don’t know how many will switch, and certainly it won’t be overnight, but it would be less enticing for android users to buy and iphone and not the other way around. Or that’s my guess.

I don’t think that apple will let that happen, which was my point, I wasn’t predicting your (or anyone in particular) future.

 

[Joshuaorange]

Don’t take it so hard. I don’t see myself switching to android either, unless when the time comes to renew my phone apple’s offering is patently worse, which could happen if they start withholding features on purpose. In that case I don’t know how many will switch, and certainly it won’t be overnight, but it would be less enticing for android users to buy and iphone and not the other way around. Or that’s my guess.

I don’t think that apple will let that happen, which was my point, I wasn’t predicting your (or anyone in particular) future.

Don’t get me wrong, I hate a lot of stuff that Apple is doing. I’ve tried several times to jump ship. The last time was a Note 20. That thing was terrible. Nothing worked, I got notification sounds with no notifications. It would have to get massively worse on IOS for Android to truly be the better option.

 

[surferfb]

Don’t take it so hard. I don’t see myself switching to android either, unless when the time comes to renew my phone apple’s offering is patently worse, which could happen if they start withholding features on purpose. In that case I don’t know how many will switch, and certainly it won’t be overnight, but it would be less enticing for android users to buy and iphone and not the other way around. Or that’s my guess.

I don’t think that apple will let that happen, which was my point, I wasn’t predicting your (or anyone in particular) future.

I'd just reiterate that Apple isn't removing features to spite the EU. The DMA literally states that gatekeepers have to open any core OS features to others who ask them to. Apple Intelligence isn't even ready enough for Apple to be testing it in the betas yet, they're definitely not ready to be making all of that public APIs so Google can plug in an "OK Google" AI assistant.

And that assumes 1) Apple is allowed to offer the feature in Europe (unclear given DMA language about gatekeepers' ability to combine information from different services they offer without explicit user consent) and 2) Apple would ever allow third parties have that level of access to almost everything on your phone.

Again, that's not to say they don't eventually come to the EU, but I certainly understand Apple wanting to get clarity from the regulators (which they seem to not want to give ahead of time, for whatever reason) before rolling it out over there. Given the size of the fines if they guess wrong, it's be negligent NOT to hold back features they think might run afoul of the DMA.

 

[thefourthpope]

Upset?

You continued to buy iPhones with the expectation of using a single App Store just as much as you continued to buy a Mac with the expectation of installing applications in other places.

If you were unhappy with this, you would have bought a different device. That is fair for all people.

It is not fair that I bought thousands of apps from the App Store only for the apps to leave the App Store because people were unhappy *after* they purchased the iPhone that they couldn't install from outside the App Store.

That’s not why I bought iPhones. I bought iPhones with the knowledge that they were limited to a single App Store, not because of it.

 

[breenmask]

That’s not why I bought iPhones. I bought iPhones with the knowledge that they were limited to a single App Store, not because of it.

I didn't say it was because of it. I said you expected it to be limited to the App Store and you agree.