Nazir Afzal interview: ‘Muslims are offered a cause to die for; I would give them something to live for’

The APCC said that its board felt that it would be inappropriate for him to appear “given the number of contentious issues relating to policing which could be raised” during the election purdah period.

Mr Afzal, 54, a bundle of lithe, barely contained energy as he sits in the garden of his north Manchester home, suspects that other motives were at play, not least professional jealousy.

“My sense was that, for whatever reason, they did not want me to be the visible face of PCCs [commissioners] when they, as the elected officers, weren’t being asked,” he said.

“My job as chief executive has been to try to raise the profile of PCCs nationally. My agreement with them has been that so long as there was no conflict of interest then I should be able to carry on engaging with the public and the media.”

The bombing prompted a yearning for answers and explanations, perhaps also a need for reassurance. “People were approaching me from the Muslim community, from the media, from the Home Office, from the wider Manchester community. I couldn’t think of any greater duty than the need to speak out.

“There’s no way that me speaking about deradicalisation and protecting all our communities could be seen as conflicting with what the PCCs would want to say. I should have been able to talk about these things without having to leave my job.”

After 20 years with the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) in London, the Birmingham-born father of four moved to Manchester in 2011 when he was appointed chief crown prosecutor for northwest England.

He was instrumental in bringing to justice nine men, largely of Pakistani origin, who committed sex offences against young teenage white girls.

The 2012 case, and Mr Afzal’s role, was revisited last month in the BBC drama, Three Girls. In a scene outside the courtroom, as Mr Afzal negotiates his way through a crowd of placard-bearing far-right demonstrators, a protester yells: “Scum! Paedo! Get back to your own country. You’re going down, you Paki bastard!”

A junior colleague fires back: “He’s the Paki bastard who brought the prosecution, you dickhead.”

This is a British Muslim lawyer, born to a family of Pakistani immigrants whose biggest cases have largely involved prosecuting Muslims for terrorism or crimes against women and girls, whether for sex-grooming or honour-based violence.

He was also instrumental in forced marriage becoming a crime and setting up the first police unit to tackle female genital mutilation.

When Mr Afzal speaks about confronting crimes committed by Muslims he does so with authority as is also the case when he reflects upon how it feels to be a Muslim when acts of unspeakable horror are carried out in the name of your religion. Right now, he has much to say.

It includes a passionate defence of Prevent, the government’s community-based counterterrorism programme for tackling radicalisation, which has been criticised for targeting and demonising Muslims.

He also speaks of Islamism, of British values, of a “deficit of leadership” among British Muslims, of the urgent need to support the work of Muslim women’s groups and of the varied and complex causes of radicalisation.

On Prevent he says: “Sadly, there’s an industry which is trying to undermine Prevent. Some of them don’t like anything that’s state-sponsored and some of them are Islamists.

“Prevent is simply safeguarding. When we’re asking people to identify victims of child sexual abuse by looking for signs, it’s the same thing for radicalisation. Look for the signs. If you’re concerned, share those concerns with somebody and then if they come to fruition we can provide some support. It’s not about criminalising.

“It has done phenomenally good work. It’s stopped at least 150 people from going to Syria, 50 of them children. And it’s grass roots.”

He believes that it has had an impact but has been poorly communicated. “The engagement on it with communities has not been very good, so it’s constantly undermined by myths put forward by this [anti-Prevent] industry that take hold because we aren’t quick enough to respond with the truth.

“Islam and Islamism are two distinct things. Islam is about the individual. Islamism is about trying to enforce a form of Islam on others, including those who don’t believe in it.”

For whatever reason there are people out there who want this other form of Islam, this political movement, to gain strength, he said. “They pick on the weakest in society, to give them something to die for. I’d rather we give them something to live for.

“We have a responsibility to stand up for British values and by that I mean the rule of law, democracy, protecting the vulnerable, women’s rights and the rights of other minorities, all of which have to be supported. If we don’t do that then there’s no point us existing as a state. And if we can’t enforce equality in institutions that receive state funding, or tax breaks, or state inspection then we’ve completely failed.

“If the state’s good for anything, it should be good at protecting minorities, protecting women and girls, at protecting the most vulnerable in society. And if it’s not doing so, then what are we there for? What are we doing?” Mr Afzal is scathing about many of the “mainstream” Muslim leaders who present themselves as spokesmen for the broader community.

“These people are self-appointed. They’re so proud of the fact they often have one woman on their committee, usually responsible for family matters, and they suggest that somehow shows how diverse they are. They’re invariably professionals, middle-class and male.

“Muslims in this country aren’t like that. The majority now are under 25, female and from relatively low-income backgrounds. And they don’t have a voice. The white community doesn’t have community leaders. Why do we assume that these minorities need leaders?

“They [the leaders] will get an OBE out of it, some kudos. And the state is generally lazy. It doesn’t go out seeking the people that it should talk to. It doesn’t talk to young people in the way it should. It always goes to the usual suspects.”

Muslim women’s groups need much more support, as they are at the “front line tackling child sexual abuse, forced marriage, honour-based violence”. “They have to fill out a 50-page document to get some lottery funding. One in Bradford needs £5,000 to survive. They are struggling, day in, day out,” he said.

“There are some really wealthy Muslims in this country. They should be spending so much more of their money at home and not in their homeland. By all means help the poor in south Asia or the Middle East, but spend more of that money on groups that are helping Muslims tackle issues in this country.

“I want to get philanthropists to spend their money here, I want NGOs and women’s groups to be supported here. It beggars belief that the communities themselves aren’t finding the funds to support such organisations. Instead it goes to build another mosque.

“During Ramadan this month if you go on any Islamic TV channel there’ll be a campaign to appeal for finance for new mosques here, there and everywhere. God bless them, but in terms of priorities I wish they’d spend that money on supporting families in this country.”

The Tories pledge in their manifesto to establish a commission for countering extremism. “Extremism, especially Islamist extremism, strips some people, especially women, of the freedoms they should enjoy, undermines the cohesion of society and can fuel violence,” it states.

This is music to Mr Afzal’s ears. It would be difficult to imagine someone more qualified to lead such a commission. In addition, he has done his bit for inter-faith tolerance and diversity. He has been married three times, first to an Irish Catholic, next to an Indian Hindu and now to a British Sikh.