Of all wine pairings this is, perhaps, one of the most unlikely. Sitting across the table from me are Will Lyons, this magazine’s wine columnist, and the TV presenter Miquita Oliver. One is a self-confessed oenophile nerd, dressed in a suit and never without a pocket handkerchief; the other best known as the ultra-cool host of cult Noughties shows, from Channel 4’s Popworld to The Month with Miquita on 4Music (and currently co-presenter of The Sunday Times Culture Show). Now they’ve come together as co-hosts of The Sunday Times’s new podcast, Wine Times. “I like to think of it as a place where we discuss someone’s greatest moments through the wine they’ve enjoyed,” Lyons says.
“Who wouldn’t want to come in and chat about their lives over a really good bottle of wine?” Oliver adds.
The podcast — recorded each week at Wadadli Kitchen, the east London restaurant owned by Oliver’s mum, the chef Andi Oliver — has been as much of a learning experience for the TV star as it has for its guests. “It’s not just Will, it’s Will and this whole world of people I knew nothing about, but he’s opened my eyes to it,” she says. “I’ve learnt that monks made the first champagne and that dessert wine can have up to 400g of sugar per litre, which blew my mind.”
Oliver’s relationship with wine got off to a ropey start. “In my crazy teenager phase I drank way too much cheap white wine, proper bottom-shelf newsagent stuff, which put me off for years.”
Now things have changed. “Will has helped me realign my relationship with wine. For example, how whites can be paired with red meat, and how red wine can go with fish. That was out-of-control news.”
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This doesn’t mean Lyons hasn’t learnt a lot from his co-host too. And it’s not just the fashion advice he receives after texting his outfits to Oliver before the recordings. After today’s interview the pair will record an episode with the Grammy-winning jazz singer Gregory Porter. “I didn’t know who he was before,” Lyons laughs. “Miquita had to tell me, but he’s just brilliant. I can’t stop listening to him.”
The experience of tasting “primary”, fruit-driven wines — the sauvignon blancs, cabernet sauvignons and chardonnays of this world — is, according to Lyons, not unlike listening to pop music: they’re heavy-hitting and feelgood songs we all know. “Think of those wines like the greatest melody makers of the 20th century — which are, obviously, the Beatles, Abba, the Beach Boys and the Commodores.”
“I’m sorry, what?” Oliver interjects. “The Commodores? Of all the people you could’ve said, Will, you’re picking the Commodores?”
Their pairing may be a surprising one, but the dynamic works. Lyons is the fount of all knowledge, passionately reeling off the names of vineyards and grapes, while Oliver, eager to learn, asks the questions, cracks the jokes and stops Lyons “going off on one”.
Each bottle is carefully paired with the guest. When the author and actress Giovanna Fletcher, who is half Italian, came on, they started the podcast with a bottle of gavi to make her feel at home, then moved on to a white rioja and a red from the foothills of the Pyrenees to broaden her horizons. For the comedian Ed Gamble, who is diabetic, Lyons chose a low-sugar pinot noir from New Zealand.
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“We go on this magic-carpet journey around the world, and as you travel you unlock all these stories about people,” Oliver says. You may think the duo have a dreamy set-up, knocking back a couple of bottles and chatting with their guests for a few hours a week. Oliver and Lyons are, however, tasting rather than drinking. “Ed Gamble did drink a little,” Lyons says. “Rob Rinder a little more,” Oliver adds. Each episode — with its cork-popping, glass-chinking, wine-glugging sound effects — does leave you reaching for refreshment, though. “Wine is a very sensory, evocative experience,” Lyons points out.
“It’s a very ritualistic thing,” Oliver agrees. “There’s so much to drinking wine that isn’t about drinking wine.”
One thing that does take some getting used to is listening to the hosts and their guests ejecting mouthfuls into a spittoon — a skill that took some practice.
“The first time I tried, I dribbled it all down my chin,” Oliver admits. “You really need to purse your lips and sort of fire it into the bucket.”
If you’re a beginner, Lyons has some unusual advice: “If you want to practise, the best thing is to do it in the bath with a pint of water and aim for the taps.”
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“I’ve become quite attached to my little spittoon,” Oliver says. “Will has a really fancy gluggle jug. Mine’s just a clanky bucket.”
For novices, one of the biggest fears when discussing wine is that you’ll either make a fool of yourself in front of someone who knows more than you, or sound pretentious. The good news is that you don’t have to start waffling about smooth tannins and long finishes to describe what you like. “Don’t worry if you can’t detect the fruits or the aromas listed on the back of the bottle,” Lyons says. “Ask yourself how it feels in your mouth. Everyone can do that. Think: is it silky or velvety? Is it heavy or light? Does it feel rough or smooth?”
There’s more welcome news if you’re prone to panicking in front of a restaurant sommelier. “Tell them you’re bored of the classics, even if you don’t know exactly what they are, and ask them to show you something that’s exciting in the wine world right now,” Lyons advises. “Crucially — and don’t get ashamed or find this awkward — tell them your budget. It’s their job to show you something amazing, whatever you can afford. If they’re worth their salt they will be able to do it.”
If you want to impress a guest or a friend, there’s no need to whip out a ten-year-old bottle of fine claret either. There are plenty of delicious but accessible grapes; a bottle of sparkling wine will always go down well, Lyons says. “I haven’t met anyone who doesn’t like bubbles at Christmas — and you can get a bottle for as little as £7.” If you can stretch a little further, he recommends Cloudy Bay’s Pelorus from New Zealand.
If you’re going to a dinner party and have no idea what’s on the menu, bring pinot noir. “A bottle from the southern hemisphere goes down well with most dishes.”
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If you prefer white wines, there’s no need to be ashamed of choosing a chardonnay. It is, after all, the grape that creates the world’s greatest white burgundies. “Look for a bottle from either Mâcon in France or from Western Australia,” Lyons says. “These are real crowd-pleasers. Don’t worry about the Bridget Jones connotations.”
For lovers of robust reds, he suggests plumping for Spanish rioja. “It’s hard to find a bad bottle of rioja and they can be great value for money.”
With eight episodes under her belt, Oliver is far more confident and says she will be taking charge of which wines are on the table at home. “I’ve always said to my family, ‘We drink so much wine, we should know more about it,’ so this year I’ll be able to give it some context. Who knows, maybe I’ll even ask for a spittoon for Christmas.”
New episodes of Wine Times are available every Tuesday on the Times Radio app, or wherever you get your podcasts. The weekly Sunday Times Culture Show, presented by Miquita Oliver and Grant Tucker, is on YouTube
Will’s top tips
1 Follow your interests. If you enjoy rosé, try as many as you can; if you love France, learn whatever you can about its wines
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2 Keep a notebook of what you like — and what you don’t. Ask yourself: is it fruity or floral? Woody, spicy or earthy? Vegetal or buttery? These are the key descriptors
3 If you can’t detect the aromas described on the label, make a note of how the wine felt in your mouth. Focus on the texture
4 If you’re looking for value, try Argentina, Portugal, southern Italy and Sicily for reds; for whites, consider South African chenin blanc and sparkling crémant from France
5 Don’t drink your wine too cold. Domestic fridges cool to about 5C, which is a little too chilly and can numb the aromas. Take the bottle out ten minutes before serving
What Miquita has learnt
1 It’s OK to ask questions. It always leads somewhere interesting
2 Red wine can go with fish, such as tuna steak or monkfish
3 The fact that monks produced the world’s first champagne
4 The best place to store wine is in your knicker drawer. It’s dark and just the right temperature
Your starter for six
Will Lyons picks out half a dozen wines to enthuse the novice wine drinker
2019 Cave de Tain Grand Classique Crozes-Hermitage
Waitrose, £10 (down from £16 until Dec 14)
France
Ripe-fruited shiraz from the new world is a common starting point for those interested in learning about red wine — and from there it’s a small step to syrah, as the grape is known in its French homeland. This elegant Crozes-Hermitage from the northern Rhône is full-bodied and savoury, brimming with red fruit, black pepper and spice. An ideal companion with a hearty stew on a cold wintry night.
2021 Yealands Marlborough Sauvignon Blanc
Sainsbury’s, £7.25
New Zealand
If you’re new to sauvignon blanc, New Zealand is an excellent place to start. In Marlborough the grape’s characteristic zingy gooseberry flavours are softened by notes of tropical fruit and green pepper, underscored by mouthwatering acidity. This is a sensational example for the price.
2019 Robert Oatley Signature Series Chardonnay
Majestic, £14.99
Australia
Disregard the snobs who decry the world’s most widely celebrated grape variety. When it’s high in quality, chardonnay marries a seductively creamy, buttery, toasty character with beautiful threads of citrus and vanilla. Oatley’s Signature Series hails from the Margaret River region and provides a little taste of why some are willing to pay thousands for the very top chardonnays in Burgundy.
2020 Chalkduster Zinfandel
Co-op, £7.50
USA
In sunny California, the zinfandel grape produces uncomplicated, undemanding wines that slip down as easily as an episode of Lovejoy. This example sits at the beginning of the wine journey and shows how a backbone of acidity can help to enhance the lush, juicy flavours of dark fruit. Show off your newly acquired knowledge by serving it with turkey and all the trimmings.
2020 Salentein Barrel Selection Malbec
Marks & Spencer, £15
Argentina
If you sometimes find classic French reds such as claret too tannic and austere, the soft, seductive malbec grape is an accessible alternative, especially when cultivated at high altitude in the Uco Valley of Argentina. The Salentein combines uplifting waves of dark plummy fruit with violet and vanilla. Just thing to serve with roast beef.
2019 Seifried Estate Sweet Agnes Riesling
The Sunday Times Wine Club, £16.99 (37.5cl)
New Zealand
A glass of chilled sweet wine can be one of the most hedonistic and intense experiences on the wine route. This late-harvest riesling from Nelson, near Marlborough, will capture your imagination with its honeyed texture and sweet notes of orange peel and lime. Pair with light puddings or enjoy on its own.