Has the British Army lost its discipline?

British soldiers fight for Queen and Country; with Mr Blair behaving like a President and more and more of our national sovereignty being seized everyday by Brussels, it is not surprising that their lack of self-understanding about their role leads to a fundamental lack of self-discipline. The soldiers are also being judged by the standards of the media age rather than by the high standards set by their peers in previous conflicts, not least World War II. War is not a TV game, it is a brutal reality. Christopher Gillibrand, Brussels



Has the British Army lost discipline? Have they ever had it? What the British army is good at is covering up their unruly, undisciplined bigotry and criminal few. And if it wasn’t for this stupid cameraman, this would have been covered up and none of us would be any of the wiser. I have no doubt that their anger is not directed at those who meted out the beatings, but to those who allowed the pictures to get into the public domain. For that there will be retributions; severe ones at that. The army doesn’t hang their washing out to dry in the open air. Glenn Renshaw, Newbury

What a non-event. The ones picked up and given a slap were ringleaders of the riot. A Snatch unit identified and removed them in order to calm the overall situation. It is a tried and tested tactic used in Northern Ireland. Was anybody being beheaded? Let’s get this into perspective and move on. Support our troops rather than talking about Queensbury Rules. This is a real situation and if the Americans were managing the preceding riot then I am sure the outcome would have been worse. Name and address withheld

It was shocking and disgraceful to watch the footage of British soldiers behaving like thugs. Before reading these responses I would not have imagined that any reader of a serious newspaper would seek to justify or excuse such conduct. Even more shocking then than the original footage are the views which some of your respondents have expressed. Britain has become the home of yob culture; it is behaviour like this which makes our country despised and puts our troops at risk - not the decision to publicise it. How amazingly perverse to suggest that it should be wrong to let the truth be known about such abuse. Open your eyes in any town centre on a Saturday night and you will see the blueprint for the behaviour which we have witnessed on this footage. The sad fact is that we have many young men of the type who have been caught on this video, and many of them find their way into the British Army. Name and address withheld

I have a wonderful idea. We will create a new level of command responsibility in the army and call them “officers”. This new rank will be held accountable for the actions of the troops they command. We really cannot condemn non-commissioned officers and other ranks when it clearly is a breakdown in the command hierarchy that must be at fault. Brian Lewis, Manila, Philippines

I think if I was a squadie in Iraq, the first thing I’d do would be to shoot every journo I saw. With friends like them, who needs enemies? Bry Barnes, Somerset

If this was pure abuse and the senior officers knew about it, then the problem lies with the senior managers who condoned it. If however, the soldiers have some mitigation, then this should be heard also. Rajendra Joshi, Leicestershire

Surely the ability to act on occasion in a brutal manner is what soldiering is largely about and certainly this country’s teeth-arm units promoted “controlled aggression” in recruits (and beyond) in the very recent past. As to the accusations of any lack of control, anyone with a modicum of experience of internal security operations could justifiably argue that the video footage suggested the four men detained were being effectively controlled by troops who had not lost their reason. Which is perhaps more than many of the more damning commentators could say of themselves. Certainly the amateur-video’s added commentary was as unpleasant as it was unprofessional. Perhaps the same accusation could be levelled against some middle-ranking and senior officers, both serving and retired, who spoke out against these actions. Although not timid, the non-lethal violence was nonetheless fairly mild when compared with local responses to similar violent disturbances in that part of the world. Without such support British troops in, as they so often are, a difficult position neither of their own making nor choosing, will become increasingly despondent with the treatment dished out to them by their politicians, elements of the press, and portions of a public largely uneducated in the realities of the professional soldiers’ lot. Peter MacDonald, Redditch

Great how quick we are to rubbish our own young men for their actions in the face of greater violence and danger. Whatever happened to loyalty? Let him who criticises them receive the first stone. Name and address withheld

The harsh treatment of the prisoners was not acceptable but I am not one bit shocked. What would shock me? A picture of a British soldier beheading an Iraqi peace activist and putting the resulting pictures on the Internet. We aren’t playing the same game, so we should never have gone in the first place unless we intended to do so, especially as Iran had the weapons program, not Iraq. David Cage, Highworth

How do you stop bands of aggressive youths trying to maim and kill soldiers who mean them no harm? Are children throwing stones and grenades responsible for their actions? In an ideal world, these kids would be at school or playing with friends, with little interest in violence, politics or religion. In times of war, they would be out of danger and protected by their parents or relatives. But these youths have been abused, manipulated and corrupted by the society they live in. The same society that is horrified when its children are beaten in combat. If they had been enemy soldiers, they would have been shot. Maybe some individuals were heavy-handed but this is a war zone and no place for children. There are two wrongs here but the worst by far is a society that allows children to play war games. This is where the Muslim world should focus its outrage. Robert Taylor, Dorset

Some of the soldiers were beating the Iraqis with issue batons - presumably if they had beat them in the place where the rioting was taking place that would have been OK. Where were the officers, or senior NCOs? Colin Dix, Orihuela, Spain

Seeing the headlines in the Arabic press, let us get the hell out of there. These are battle troops not policemen, perhaps they could be replaced with our beloved government, who after a few hours in this arena may not be so keen on starting another escapade like this. Name and address withheld

A couple of points. First, that you’re asking British soldiers to do a policing job, as they did in Northern Ireland. I know soldiers who have served in both regions, and they are more than aware of their rules of engagement, the “yellow card”, and I would guess for the most part they are thoroughly professional in carrying out a tough job in tough circumstances, with admirable restraint. Second, Blair and the politicians who sent our soldiers over there to be shot at and bombed should not be allowed to get away with hanging the same soldiers out to dry to gain a political advantage at home. The media should ask why the Army is still there, doing the job of an Iraqi police force. Jonathon Jones, London

I read today the article by Martin Samuel saying how as a parent, he would feel he had failed if his children joined the forces in peace time. My son is in the Army aged 18; many parents of young serving soldiers would perhaps feel betrayed by Mr Samuel’s comments. How smug he sounds in his safe profession along with the 99.9 per cent of the population. This is a time of great challenge for all young people in the Armed Forces and the police. Their leaders had better be up to the task of training and controlling them; the politicians need to be honest and rational in their decision-making. Does it worry me that my son is in the Army? Of course it does. Am I proud of his choice? Yes I am. Lesley Highfield, Guildford

Martin Samuel has the courage to say what many today feel. Gone are the days when British troops were used to defend their fellow citizens. To be a soldier today is to be a pawn used by politicians to further their ambitions as international statesmen. Such behaviour by troops in a foreign land with no clear moral objectives is only to be expected. David Davies, London Martin Samuel, a sports correspondent, decides to pour scorn on the Army. He may as well - he doesn’t play sport and he does nothing to defend the country. At least he is consistent. Greg Toyn, London

Once again, all perspective lost. How awful that people out to kill and maim should be seized and roughed up a bit - in comparison, say, to those innocently going about their daily business? Yet I wonder which will draw the loudest, most hypocritical faux-outrage? I wonder, too, whether people stop to think of the violence with which rioting petrol bombers have rightly been met in this country, where we actually have some semblance of law and order and a judicial system through which to process them. Richard Garvey, London

Everyone is quick to say it’s wrong. Does anyone ask if these Iraqis initiated the attack or had they done anything to cause it? Yes the beating went a bit too far but a lot of people tend to forget - many Iraqis would do (and have done) exactly the same to our soldiers. Many Iraqis throw stones and injury our soldiers. Perhaps these soldiers were sticking up for themselves. C. Smart, Bedfordshire

True, the troops behaved disgracefully and the Danish cartoons should not have seen the light of day, but, in both cases the real, lasting damage has been the decision to give wide publicity to something that happened long ago and had been safely contained. The combined effect has been disastrous for the hopes of a peaceful settlement in Iraq and the war against terrorism. These things can only have been published by mischief-makers who were upset by the progress of democracy in Iraq and were opposed to peace and to our attempts to promote reconciliation between Christians and Muslims. Those responsible for this wilful muck-spreading should be prosecuted for incitement to racial hatred. Nigel MacNicol, Oakham

Suicide bombers kill hundreds with little or no reaction from the Muslim world. British soldier kicks rioter who may have been throwing a hand grenade at him and the Middle East erupts in flames. It would appear that Muslims just want to pick a fight with the Western world, ably assisted by our Government. David Leslie, Crieff, Scotland

If those Iraqi teenagers were threatening the soldiers they have every right to defend themselves and prevent other attacks upon themselves, no matter the age of the attackers, especially as it was reported that a home-made grenade was thrown. Name and address withheld

Having read the article by Martin Samuel (soldiers in Iraq), I feel that this man has the largest rose-tinted glasses on this planet. His take on what he thinks is actually happening in our own country beggars belief. I am sure he lives in a lovely area with nice gardens, where everyone says hello to each other in the morning, but he needs a reality check. Our streets are being overrun by idiots who have no respect for the law or the police. The fact that he can sit safe in his suburban garden is a tribute to the many thousands of soldiers, sailor and airmen who are suppressing the global terrorism which has encompassed this world. Here’s a thought, Martin: why don’t you get yourself over to Iraq and write an informed article about the forces? Intelligence found on ops in Iraq and other hotspots has helped in the stopping of other terrorist attacks in this country, so spare a thought for the so-called violent thugs of the British forces who protect your liberty and family from terrorist attacks. Name and address withheld

Being a fellow soldier, I can understand the uproar this video has caused, but put yourself in their shoes. They’re in a hostile environment where their lives are constantly on the line and when incidents like these come to light, everyone judges the military without knowing the true story. At the end of the day, the soldiers are doing what they are paid and trained to do and if they feel that their lives or anyone else’s are in danger they will do what is necessary. I take my hat off to them. They are doing a tremendous job and people should realise that. Wade Campbell, London

George Orwell once observed that the only reason we can sleep in our beds at night is that rough men are prepared to do violence on our behalf. There is more wisdom and insight in this one simple observation than in all the twaddle penned by Martin Samuel et al in the mainstream media. Mark Lyndon, London

Every time you hear military top brass and politicians expressing insincere distaste at our boys in Iraq (following a cheap journalistic stunt using two-year-old video footage of our troops serving rough justice on rock-throwing teenage Iraqi thugs), please remember a famous poem by Rudyard Kipling, Tommy, which sums up the hypocrisy. The Army is made up of tough working-class lads, the age of these soldiers not much older than those Iraqi teenagers. They are not pampered university graduates, social workers nor nursery nurses. They are aggressive professional soldiers; this usually suits the top brass and politicians until their cushy Whitehall and ministerial jobs come under extreme media pressure. Threats of dishonourable discharge and pension loss are not going to worry Tommy who puts his life on the line for a salary of £14,000 a year. After 22 years’ service, this pension will not cover the deposit on a house for his wife and children. Save your disgust for the Judas who prostituted his soul to the highest bidder to earn a few thousand at the detriment of his fellow comrades. That man will have blood on his hands. Derek Clulow, Derby

The beatings meted out to the young Iraqis by British soldiers were appalling and wrong. How could anyone think otherwise? No doubt, the perpetrators will be properly punished. However, let’s keep a sense of proportion. A handful of soldiers were involved, not the entire British Army in Iraq and we have no reason to believe that this was other than an isolated act. While we are waiting for this story to be touted around by British press, maybe the reportedly furious Muslim religious leaders could also express outrage over the carnage caused by the July 2005 bombings or could plainly condemn some of the vicious, murderous rhetoric bandied about by certain Muslim radicals. So far, it’s been equivocation and a willingness to criticise everyone but themselves. Anne Miles, Bournemouth

Is this incident, and others that are reputed to have happened but of which there is no video evidence, the symptom of poor recruitment in the Army? Are we recruiting cretins and morons from our civil prisons, dressing them up in combats and sending them out to foreign countries for a good night out? That is what it looks like. The idiots who did this should be identified, named and discharged, but not before being severely punished. John Stenhouse, Worcestershire

So typical of the self-flagellation of our nation by our mighty media. So willing to put our troops in even more danger but not so willing to put themselves in danger by publishing the cartoons. Name and address withheld

Two points spring to mind here: One, these “squaddies” would behave no differently after a pubcrawl if given the chance; and two, this is exactly the kind of behaviour that makes whole nations and regions angry enough to submit to the preachings of extremists idiots. Does anybody honestly think that the “British Army renowned for its fairness” behaved differently when conquering countries and continents and dividing them at its fancy? George Llamar, London

It’s interesting to see how people ashamed of the acts performed by “our boys” use the veil of Islam as a smokescreen and then try to weave the freedom of speech cartoon debate into this shameful episode. This has got nothing to do with Muslims, nothing to do with the cartoons and everything to do with brutality and grotesque indiscipline. If these soldiers are trained only to kill and fight, what are they doing in downtown Basra? I am not at all looking forward to the day that these so-called soldiers (thugs) are discharged from the Army and enter civilian life - binge drinking and collecting ASBOs will be top of their shopping lists. Let’s all admit that what they did was wrong. Name and address withheld

I was in the UK when Blair dragged Britain into a war no one wanted. There is no such thing as “honourable, decent wars”. All wars are nasty, mean and brutal and involve killing people. Journos and liberal observers who have never risked more than their literary reputations are suitably outraged at the thought of “our boys” muddying the waters of their pristine view of war. Mr Blair gets 24-hour protection and his kids lead comfortable, privileged lives, unlike those young soldiers who can expect at any moment to be maimed, burnt alive or blown up by Iraqis. If there is any justice in this horrid mess I hope to see Blair standing in the dock at the Hague as a war criminal. Morgane Soffe, Dunedin, New Zealand

Perhaps the soldiers were brutal, perhaps they were undisciplined, perhaps they overstepped the mark, but then why send a man with a mandate to kill if needed, and then moan if he just punches and kicks? Surely there is something sick with society if killing in the name of the State is considered brave on both sides, while a mere assault is considered uncivilised? Would we have tried to persecute these soldiers had they fired and killed a few people in the crowd - which by all accounts was being unruly and rowdy immediately prior to the chastisement the soldiers resorted to? Moiz Saigara, Nottingham

From the footage I saw, the soldiers stopped hitting the detainees once they had stopped struggling. The riot seemed to have eased off, also. Fearful politicians and an inflammatory media on both sides are leading us to a position of hatred and loathing. Don’t let them win. Bill Bird, Wirral

The only crime I see in the ongoing discussion on the beatings by British Soldiers in Iraq is the two-faced traitor who filmed this in the first place and then sold it for profit to the newspaper. The bleeding hearts who think this is shameful obviously have never been in a position where their lives were on the line, and thus have no right to judge. Peter Keeble, Ontario, Canada

If only the police here were allowed to do the same to our teenagers and drunken thugs. Cam Luong, Manchester

A lot of the media and many politicians need to grow up. What was shown on the video is completely standard; happens in all armies everywhere. The proper response from the rest of us is that we do not wish to know about it. If these wilfully naive attitudes do not change we will soon have no effective armed forces and, soon after that, no country. If current ludicrous attitudes to military behaviour had existed during the Second World War, half of the Armed Forces would have been prosecuted. But then, most Britons seriously wished to keep their society intact. Bill Fuller, London

So this video of detained rioters being briefly beaten up by British soldiers has provoked outrage throughout the Middle East. Why is it that no outrage is provoked in the Middle East over the far worse slaughter of hundreds of innocent Iraqi civilians and policemen by Muslim suicide bombers? At least the British Army, general public and Government condemn such actions by our soldiers and take action against the perpetrators, whereas the suicide bombers are praised as heroes and martyrs by the Muslim world. Tim Vernon-Brown, Lindfield

Incidents like this latest assault scandal come as no surprise to myself and many “nationalists” living in Northern Ireland. During the “troubles” it was a common occurrence for British soldiers to kick and punch members of the (Catholic?) community during stop and search operations. I myself was on the receiving end of these blows on many occasions. Paul Fearon, Newry, Ireland

What a strange world we live in. On one hand, we have multiple kidnappings and subsequent murders shown in graphic technicolour via Al-Jazeera, and the world says, “Oh, isn’t that terrible”. And on the other we have British soldiers, constantly under fire (take a look at the footage prior to the “beatings”) who, for one reason or another, give some stone- and petrol-bomb throwing kids a bit of a slap and it’s like we’ve restarted the Holocaust. Much as deliberate violence towards civilians should be punished appropriately, the levels of outrage spewed forth from Mr Blair and the socialist media in Britain epitomises hypocrisy. Steve Lee, Kent

First Guantanamo Bay, then Abu Ghraib and now this. What next? Is there no limit to the barbarity of these so called “liberators”. It seems that the British and Americans are adopting tactics from the Israeli forces. This incident once again shows the high moral standards and values adopted by the Western forces. One can now appreciate why the Iraqi resistance is increasing. Imran Khan, Stoke-on-Trent

All the news media representatives in this country seem to have taken a degree in wilful naivety. I simply cannot believe that any serious journalist was as surprised by this as they make out. If they were they really should choose a different profession. We cannot judge these men as we were not on the ground at the time. If the commanding NCO had determined that giving a few Iraqis a good kicking would prevent further trouble which might result in British or Iraqi deaths then that’s an end of it as far as I’m concerned. From what I’ve seen this appeared to be exactly what was happening. The worst you could say of this scenario was that it may have been ill-judged. The commentary was a bit fruity certainly but I would put that down to a young guy being caught up in the moment. This is a non-event as far as I’m concerned. Derek Sinclair, Dundee

The recruitment pool for the British Army consists of youngsters who indulge in violence after binge-drinking in inner-city areas, those who play truant from school or behave as football hooligans. In general, the population at large is more undisciplined than at any other time in history. Why should we be surprised if every now and then we come across a case of indiscipline within the British Army. This is not an isolated occurrence but is a reflection of modern British society. Vinay Mehra, Purley



There is no point in sending a troop of effeminate hairdressers to confront a howling mob of disgruntled, mocking Iraqis throwing rocks and possibly hand-grenades as well. The soldiers we do send will be trained to face and control these situations with a degree of professionalism and restraint beyond belief, but they have still been primed to respond forcibly and violently when required. We should recognise and applaud their professionalism, not condemn them for those times when in a state of heightened preparedness, even a saint would find it difficult not to react. Keith Downer, London

I was terribly shocked when I watched the terrible video on our television last night and appalled by the rude words of the commentator. The British army seems to have lost its prestige and credibility. Those soldiers must be severely punished. Alain Bosquet, Issoudun, France

The abuse of the helpless Iraqis is horrific. Because of these barbaric acts the once proud reputation of the British army as fair, just and disciplined in times of great stress and hostility is deteriorating by the second. During the peak of the IRA, Northern Ireland was a hot spot for random terrorist attacks on the British army, yet the whole world watched as Britain earned its reputation as being fair and balanced when dealing with the local people even when being hurtled with stones, eggs and much more. However in light of these new pictures and the previous abuses this once proud reputation seems a distant memory. Now all one can do is hope that both the army and the political establishment not only punishes these perpetrators swiftly but addresses why there seems to be such a breakdown in discipline and basic human morality. Majid Hussain, Surrey

Brutality in any form cannot be condoned, but I wonder how our ambitious politicians would react if they were put into a situation when at any time they could lose their lives. This is of course not new - remember The Somme, Gallipoli, The Falklands etc. Will they never learn? Bernard Parke, Guildford

The troops must be made to realise that their understandable anger or frustration does not make this sort of conduct acceptable. Any punishment should not be confined to eight people. The chain of command must be investigated. Troops should not claim that publication of the footage makes their task harder - it is their conduct that has done this. Any increased risk they have brought upon themselves. The problem is that those who suffer will most likely not be those who offended. The video show many troops passing by as beatings took place. No-one intervened and that should worry army brass. John Wood, Berwickshire

To ask the question as to whether the British Army has lost its discipline is outrageous. It is more disciplined now than ever before. It is a good thing that this video should be investigated, but it is shameful that it has been used to sell papers. Name and address withheld

Mr Downer needs to understand that sadistic thuggery is not commensurate with the duties of a professional soldier. I have seen the video, and if the moron providing the commentary is indicative of the standard of our current level of recruit then God help us all. Soldiering is a difficult and dangerous business, made even more hazardous by ill-disciplined and oafish behaviour. These men must be punished: the honour of their comrades demands it. Michael Rigby, Chorley

Don’t think this is an isolated incident and I don’t necessarily think it is due to breakdown in of control in the ranks. What I do think is that it is indicative of current youth culture where this sort of violence occurs on our streets, evidenced by the recent spate of “happy slapping” incidents. It appears to me that the army has lowered its recruiting standards considerably, and the process is no longer rigorous enough in selecting suitable candidates to become soldiers. In a bid to boost flagging numbers they appear to let in any old “chav” who has the ability to sign a name on a dotted line. The desire to serve one’s country and embark on a successful career has been replaced by the opportunity to beat up a few foreigners, make a few quid, and relinquish any responsibility for one’s actions. Ben Appleton, Plymouth

Torture, beatings and war in my name. Great. All whilst I’m watching TV. Long live democracy, I say. Howard Worsley, Alderley Edge

Firstly, no matter what the circumstances, the soldiers should not have done what they did, even with extreme provocation. Secondly, the News of the World have not done anyone any favours - the incident is two years old and hurts all of Britain. Finally, Tony Blair is a disgrace - he sent the boys in there and fails them by not backing them up. This story is not in the public interest as it is old and increases tension at an already-tense time. Name and address withheld

Brutal? Yes. Undisciplined? Yes. Savage? Yes. But I’ll bet those particular Iraqis didn’t throw any more stones at soldiers. It’s not like they were randomly picked up. Name and address withheld

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