Interview: Telemetry & Suspension Setup Questions With World Cup Techs
When they weren't busy doing services and tuning up forks, we swung by to ask World Cup suspension technicians questions about suspension setup.
SR Suntour
We see on your XC suspension the electronic system coming in in the form of your TACT system. Do you think we're going to start to see that at some point in gravity racing?
Not sure. Not right now from us, for sure. But we think, for sure, at some point it will happen. And we will someday see something for downhill and enduro. I think maybe more for the enduro side it's more interesting, but it's a big idea for the brain; it's going to be a marathon to get there, but who knows, yeah, it's definitely interesting for sure. Because we are on the same thought path, we have the same goal, all of the brands.
Telemetry is something we're seeing run on almost everybody's bikes now. How do you use that, and what do you see it used for?
It's interesting for sure when it's on during the race weekend. I think most riders are using that for just small things. Like the balance of the bike, for that, it is really useful. But for us at SR Suntour, it's interesting to use it to build data for the future. You know, if we come back to the same place with a similar track, it's interesting because we have some information from the years before as proof of baselines. It's definitely more for that for us. But for the rider during the weekend, it's more for those small things like I said, to make sure the bike is working right and balanced. It's a confirmation that everything is right.
What's the biggest mistake you see people make with their suspension setup? Either here at the World Cup or generally when you're looking at bikes.
The first one is the rebound setting. Sometimes, like we said, super-fast rebound works for some riders, but not all. But really, it's making sure the bike is balanced. Making sure that when the rider is on the bike the bike is really well balanced; when that's not right, it doesn't ride right. But that’s more general riders, not so much here at the World Cup; the riders here are much more in tune with their bikes and understand them more than ever, and we really only see minor issues here.
What about on the service side? Any top tips for people at home to keep their suspension running more effectively?
Well, there is a simple one most people do when they get their bike out; just hold the bars then compress the fork a few times, and that is a good check. You can feel the fork and check for any loss in sensitivity, and if there is any, that is a good sign that your fork needs to be serviced. And really try to stick to at least one service every year or more if you ride your bike a lot.
RockShox
We've seen a lot more data acquisition (telemetry) being used at races. Is it better for you guys now working with actual data?
It's definitely something that I think we need to kind of uniformly use as a group, because we're seeing it on cross-country, we're seeing it on downhill for sure. We're definitely in the mode now where there's a lot out there. There's a lot of really good systems. There's not any bad systems, there's just a lot of different information out there and I think translating the telemetry and data acquisition stuff into usable information. I don't know a way to show the information easily, graphs are great and we do a lot of dyno stuff back in Colorado Springs in the Development Centre for Rockshox.
It's really nice to be able to make a change in the damper, or in a complete fork, run it on a really, really fast dyno, and then actually have a visual example to show a rider. One thing that we're going to try to work a lot harder on is live data acquisition, telemetry and translating. You just did this run on this track, we can tune to this track, but we also need kind of back to the basics, like, this is what your fork's doing; if you like it I'm not gonna say you can't run it because of what the data says.
Flight Attendant we're seeing used in XC, do you think it's going to creep into the gravity disciplines more?
I wouldn't be surprised to see it continue to evolve for sure. That's definitely a huge, huge focus for us. And I think it's an unbelievably cool technology. It's a bit daunting, but at the same time, we have some of the greatest people working on it. So yes, I think we're just going to continue to see it evolve and grow. And I mean, it's almost unlimited the possibilities and speaking to these guys, this year from World Champs XC, and at Andorra, it is next level what they can do remotely and what they're able to do that I didn't even think was in the realm of possibilities yet, or it may be 5 to 10 years down, and they're already like, no, no, we can do it. I do think more electronic stuff would be fun and exciting.
What's the biggest mistake you see people making with their suspension?
That's a really good one. I think I could go real basic and just be like not double checking your air pressure. Before a ride check it, because if you're five or seven psi down, it's a different fork or a different feel. My main takeaway is just the most basic, just check your settings. I mean, it takes 20 seconds to just lock down counts and clicks and put a shock pump on your fork. I think that would be one thing because we can even do it in the mad dash and the schedule and everything in the World Cup. If you counted your low-speed compression of your Super Deluxe Coil shock, and you count it from fully closed and you left it fully closed, that's gonna be a lot different than if you were 3 from fully closed.
Manitou
We see telemetry or data acquisition on almost everyone's bikes now: privateer, junior, Greg Minnaar, doesn't matter. How much does that help you guys? Are you using the data a lot more?
On the downhill side, for sure. And I think in that realm, I guess in any discipline, it helps to have data to back up what you're trying to prove from a setup standpoint. Stuff can feel fast but sometimes it may feel fast and be really slow. So if we have that data to prove or to show that what you're doing is actually faster, it's performing much better we always love that.
Yeah, makes a lot of sense to me. And I guess the other bit with helping people back home, what's the kind of biggest error you see with people with their suspension setups?
Biggest error, I guess there are really two biggest errors that I see. One, you're not testing new things. Always try new settings, either for different courses, different trails, different weather conditions, you know, all of that kind of plays in. Then the second thing, along those lines, is not having your baselines tracked, you can kind of fall down the rabbit hole of getting off of pressures and so on. So write down your settings and test new ones. And then if things start feeling weird, go back to your original just to get that sense check.
We're seeing from other brands and the new flight attendant, SR Suntour's track system. Are you guys looking into that kind of area with electronics being involved in suspension? Or are you quite comfortable where you are?
I think we're always investigating new opportunities. Right now I think we're working on some remote, new remote setups. If you've been paying attention to Rock Rider, you've seen those. But right now we're focused mechanically, mostly. But obviously, you never know what's coming.
If you could give people one bit of advice to keeping their suspension working properly, what would it be?
Grease, oil, regular service. It never hurts to be able to pull the casting after your 50 hours are in, hold the casting, grease your seals, check your seals, especially on the air spring. That's gonna be the most important thing to not only make sure that your suspension is going to last for a long time, but also operate the way that it did when you opened the box.
Fox Racing Shox
Many World Cup riders are running data acquisition or telemetry. Has all of that date proven to be helpful for setup?
It's good for getting a new bike tuned in and then getting it set up quickly, but once you're racing it should be small adjustments. Few psi a few clicks. and then that's all.
What are the biggest errors you see with suspension?
People feeling the that the fork's harsh and then dropping too much pressure so that it ends up sitting in the middle of the stroke. And it's harsh. Put some pressure in there. Set your sag properly and you're good to go. That's the main thing we see.
What's your top tip for everyone to keep their suspension running smoothly?
Get it serviced regularly. Don't put weird things on or in them. Just look after it. Set your pressure, set your rebound and you're usually good to go.
Öhlins
Are you finding the data from telemetry / data acquisition setups useful?
I mean, telemetry is not something new to us. We've been using it for 25 years at Ohlins. We see also, this is what happened in motocross like 20 years ago. Everybody had to have telemetry on their bikes, but no one really knew what they were looking at. If you're going to use telemetry, it's just another tool, it's like the same thing as having a torque wrench in your toolbox. And the thing is with telemetry, you have to use it all the time. You see some teams here, one of our teams, they have specially built bikes for that purpose that they only use to collect data and you have to use it all the time. Because otherwise, what are you going to look at? You see some wheel movements and you see a bottom out every once in while, which is not necessarily wrong. The bottom line with our riders are the riders comments. I mean, if the telemetry shows amazing numbers to you, but the riders are not satisfied with their bike who are you gonna listen to?
They've still got a ride at the end of the day, right?
Exactly. Back at Ohlins we have a huge lab with different machineries that we can test everything and anything pretty much. Let's say, we need to come up with certain settings and so on for specific riders, then we use that and telemetry just another tool like any another tool in the toolbox.
What are the biggest suspension setup mistakes you see?
It's basically two things that I want to push for. First of all, everybody can read a ruler, right? But it seems, even in this downhill paddock, people can't read a ruler, because people have completely wrong sag. So take your time and get that dialed and you will have a much better performing bike. Because I would say 80% of the performance of the bike is the balance. And if you have the wrong balance, it doesn't matter what settings or tunes you have, you have to have that first. So that's one thing I really want to push for.
The second thing is to keep your suspension fresh. That's probably the single best improvement you can do to a used bike is just do a lower service. I mean, it's just a matter of a little bit of foam rings and oil and grease, and you will have a much better performing front fork, for instance. So that's something that people can take with them and do for themselves. We've got YouTube channels, you can check it out and service centers around the world that will help you out if you don't want to do it by yourself because you will have a better ride, you will go faster, and at the end of the day, you will be happier.
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A stiff setup can feel sim to a soft setup....too much rebound (packing) can feel like to much compression (stiff) and vice versa....
I read this a lot but the physics doesn't make sense to me.
If going over a bump puts 170lb total weight on the fork, how would having a lower spring rate make it feel firmer. The fork would simply settle where spring rate meets force. With a lower spring rate this would just be deeper in the travel, affecting bottom out instances and ride height, but not force transmitted through the handlebar for bumps other than the ones that cause bottom out.
Getting the fork right first helps dial in the right cockpit fit. Shock doesn't change as much but you'd be surprised at the amount of people complaining about pedal strikes until you realize they're running 45% sag on flat ground, increasing to 50-60% sag on climbs when weight shifts rearward.
I completely agree that having too little psi in the fork (which equates to too much sag) causes issues with riding position. And this riding position can cause the rider to not absorb impacts optimally with their arms and legs, causing them to put more pressure on their hands.
But I challenge anyone here to make a physics-based case for how *reducing* psi makes a fork *firmer*. To demonstrate the absurdity of this, go ahead and try removing 20 psi from your fork. Is it even firmer now? Of course not - it's much softer. So you're telling me that reducing psi by 5 makes the fork firmer, but reducing it by 20 makes it softer?
At the heart of this misunderstanding is the idea that a fork is supposed to be "soft" or "supple." The correct way to look at this is:
1) the fork is meant to preserve geometry/riding position and aid in *control* and *grip* which is not the same thing as comfort.
2) Barring any hand injuries that you need to address, it is not comfortable going over bumpy trails. If you want the feeling of plowing over natural features without feeling any feedback on your hands or arms, maybe take up a different sport or buy a boat. Mountain biking is not comfortable.
3) Improving hand and arm comfort primarily comes down to tire psi, rim flex, appropriate rider positioning, appropriate rider grip and arm strength, and appropriate grips.
People would be better suited being told this rather than the erroneous "pump up your fork for more comfort."
You example of sitting in a shop with 20psi less is reasonable, IN A SHOP, but the minute you sit on the bike and start riding the dynamic / rider sag is going to be more than intended. In real world conditions you'll be sitting lower, have more negative travel and will be ramping the pressure in the forks over a shorter duration especially with added tokens.
Use an extreme example, lower pressure to 10psi, you'll have 20mm of travel to use and a harsh fork but it will feel 'soft' in the shop.
But it's definitely not the case that 10psi will be a firmer fork than 70psi.
Problem arises when you ride it, it's going to sag from your weight along with it bumping along mid travel trying to hold you up in the field, which it won't do well. A fork with little PSI is going to ride lower in the travel and ramp up quicker which is what we are talking about, it's riding in the steeper part of the curve from the get go.
A fork with the "right" amount of air is going to hold you up properly and ride in the more linear part of the stroke and is going to feel a lot better on the trail....especially true when adding more tokens since you are bottoming, making the ramp even quicker to the OP's point.
ummmmm, there is a whole multi million dollar aftermarket industry fixing your shoddy bushing clearances, re-valving dampers that barely function and making your "premium product" actually function like it should.
This is coming from a fox user too lol.
My bike is absolutely dialed. I love it. I push into it, and everything comes back at a similar rate, just how I like it. Even my arm pump is gone. I’m more confident, and I no longer have my bike to blame for trails feeling harsh or weird. It’s just me.
It’s totally worth the time it takes.
The overall point though is to keep the bike operating mostly within the window it was designed to work in without the rear all squatted out or front too soft and blowing through the travel.
Just get it ballpark and make small tweaks from there to make it suit your terrain and riding style.
Off the brakes the bike will ride at the same angle relative to the ground, no matter the gradient the ground is at. (kinda... its actually a bit more complicated than that as both ends will reduce in sag the steeper the track gets, until both ends reach 0% sag when the track is vertical. But for all intents and purposes, track gradient basically doesn't effect sag until you pull the brakes)
However yes, when you brake the front will dive much deeper into the travel and the rear will unweight more, on steep tracks.
Balance is not about sag. Sag is a very rough starting point and never the end goal.
So many people constantly chasing settings like they are Minnaar when the real problem is they themselves just feel different that day.
I like a super linear feel, no right or wrong answer!
For us laypeople who ride cushy setups, I think “feel” is way more tangible.
If it's balanced, that rock you just rode over will feel the same on both wheels. Same compression speed, same compression travel used, same rebound speed as you return to dynamic sag height.
I hope I'm in that upper 50% but there's no guarantee.
No, we're seeing "data acquisition". "Telemetry" is real-time, and remote, data acquisition. Somebody might be doing that already, but thing we see for "almost everybody" is just DA with post-run download and analysis.
"Well, there is a simple one most people do when they get their bike out; just hold the bars then compress the fork a few times, and that is a good check. You can feel the fork and check for any loss in sensitivity"
Great for sure to see all that high-end technology trickle down to the common man.
like the fox guy said, people fall into the trap of lowering PSI in attempt to gain plushness, and instead end up deep in the midstroke where it ramps up and feels stiff. Volume spacers can exacerbate this effect.
Sag should stand for "Simply A Guide"
It's not a hard and fast rule, it's not a specific percentage or number or mm. It varies depending on riding style, terrain, bike, and ultimately, what a rider's preferred feel is. That last point is the key one. Set your suspension up so it feels right, ride it, tweak it depending on scenario. And if right at the end of all that, you want to attempt to measure that sag number/percent in some meaningful, replicable way... go for it. That number is Simply A Guide for you to set your suspension up for you.
And do what they say, service your forks, idiots.
It never, ever, gives the right result. Sag on air forks/shocks is determined almost totally by negative air volume/pressure and can change massively. See Rockshox Debonair fork springs B1/C1 for a great example.
For example - if you decide that you want your fork to feel really plush on slow, choppy sections of trail it may be tempting to run 30%+ sag. This will indeed make it a bit smoother off the top, but you are going to hurt yourself when things get fast and deep.
This trade off may seem obvious and it's one many people are willing to make, however one thing that a lot of people don't consider is what happens to your geometry when you run this kind of setup. At 30% sag, your front end is sitting lower than it should which translates to a steeper head angle, less stability at speed, and a lower BB. If you look at rear sag, you will find similar drawbacks to running more or less sag than recommended.
In a nutshell, your frame and suspension manufacturer designed their products to function best in a particular sag and damping range for the meat of the bell curve. While there are extreme cases that may warrant going outside of these suggested setup ranges, it's usually not in your best interest to stray too far for a whole host of reasons, geometry being one of the most important in my opinion.
I tried running my bike at the suggested sag (7 years ago) when I first got it. It was like riding a soggy sponge. I know my air pressure and my damping settings. That is all I need to know to set up my fork.
Now that I’m on bicycles rather than motorcycles, balance is even more important since there’s no clutch lever and engine to affect it.
After setting Shock sag, I want my bike to hit any jump, any rock and anything I don’t see, while landing with a perfect attitude regardless of speed. It takes many rides to get this right, and if my weight changes by 5Lbs, it’s gonna be off.
I’d say priority one is psi or spring rate, two is rebound damping, and last is compression damping.
Now if I end up using too much travel on one end to get there, something is wrong. Usually cockpit.
..I’m somewhat particular
If you gave me an actual good setup for someone 30lbs lighter, I'd be clanging all over the place. I could ride it, and find a way to have have fun, but the only thing predictable would be numerous bottom outs.
It's the difference between driving a car empty and a car full of people. You can feel the weight difference but it still does everything it should.
You need to get in touch with a Formula One car racing team and tell him they’re doing it wrong.
Shit, with your 40% weight window, everything could be coil with just like 2 spring rates to cover every rider ever, and air springs would be factory sealed with 1 of 2 pressure options. I guess literally everyone is doing it wrong.
Perhaps you haven't driven a car or truck filled to capacity, because there's is a definitely noticeable ride change: specifically more harshness from smashing into bump stops.
When you're obsessing over a single click or a couple psi, what else could ends up being off in the setup? A different clicker? A few mm somewhere else? How to you know those couple mm or couple psi are not the setup problem until you change them and try it.
But it's this: "when small changes are very noticeable, that typically means you’re way outside the optimum range for any parameter" and Dougal's similar sentiment that don't make sense.
It sound like when moving away from optimum you guys see (per click/change):
good, good, good, good, bad, worse, way worse, terrible
While I see:
great, good, okay, decent, bad, bad, still bad, again bad
After a certain point, bad is just bad, it doesn't get any worse, it just doesn't get better. If it's way off, I don't care if I'm 8 clicks or 9 clicks off, since both are shit, doing (relatively) nothing. But, 2 or 3 clicks off is noticeable while still being predictable and you can adapt to it.
Yeah, you might be right that 4 times as stiff could be worse than 2 times as stiff, but they'd still both be hot garbage, so I would not accept either of them.
Data acquisition is the process of acquiring the data of the suspension movement. This is what these teams are doing with sensors gathering the data and saving it to an on-bike device.
Telemetry is the process of sending this acquired data remotely to an off-bike unit that gathers the data and may also analyze and report on it.
Being the only difference also means its quite important not to mix them up. The only difference between a hardtail and full suspension is the rear suspension...
Back to the point of my original comment though - there is no telemetry used in DH racing.
Maybe you’re using an outdated definition or one specific to a particular industry, but modern telemetry equipment will send and receive. It is literally just remote communication.
As I said, they both often use the same communication methods, hence "modern telemetry equipment will send and receive" being true, but the concept of "telemetry" is "remote measuring and reporting", not the "remote control" of "telematics".
DVO/IBIS gave us tunes with basically no compression damping. Rockshox gave us Charger3 with a hugely dished base-valve, Fox has given us GRIP2VVC with harsh midvalve and very little total compression damping.
It's almost like everyone is getting lost in a mountain of data that gives no answers.
The Ibis thing was on purpose. The RS one doesn't even mean anything. The Fox one... amazing they can find harshness without having much total damping, that's magical.
The best single data acquisition remains as video. Because data streams without context can rapidly lead to wrong conclusions.
It's like watching a bunch of people hit a jump to judge speed (DA only), getting towed-in to learn the speed (DA plus feelings), and just hitting it and seeing what happens (only feelings).
If you case it after watching others, you can guess that it was a speed issue, but you won't know until you try going a different speed. If the speed was good, you still could crash when going faster because you didn't interpret the _data_ correctly and made the wrong change.
If you case it on a good tow-in while the first rider clears it, that's _data_ that tells you it wasn't your speed, it was something else that caused the case.
If you botch it all on your own, you don't really know if it was speed, or not pushing through the takeoff, or anything else at all. The only _data_ you have is that it didn't work.
... That sentence structure doesn't even qualify as a structure.
Ohlins "It's really important to get your sag right"
PBers "Sag doesn't matter"
You'd assume Ohlins have a fairly decent idea of what matters
You'd assume these manufactures would make good products but yet people complain all the time about them..
Learn how to have a good understanding of what the changes actually do to impact your setup, and spend a fair amount of time trying things/recording settings on your own bike so that you can come to your own conclusions.
Most people pay for upgrades because they're lost. Find yourself. Then upgrade only if necessary.
I also want the Vorsprung shock that isn’t out yet.
www.pushindustries.com/collections/front-suspension/products/nine-point-one
Öhlins seems to know what they're doing...
LMFAO
I see too many bikes running 50% or more...