CDR Pioneer Interview - Clever Carbon

'Unbound Showcase' is a globe-spanning series of interviews with pioneers of carbon dioxide removal (CDR). We’re questioning innovators, business leaders, policymakers, academics, buyers, and investors taking on the challenge of our lifetime—gigaton-scale carbon removal from the earth's atmosphere.

Today’s interview is with Michelle Li , Founder of clever carbon and Women and Climate .

“What is Clever Carbon?”

Michelle Li - At Clever Carbon, we teach people about carbon footprint in a really hip and fun way; anything from knowing, for example, a vegetarian meal has 600 grams of CO2 emissions, a serving of chicken is 1300, and a serving of beef is 7,700. Our goal is to give people a foundation and a basis of where carbon comes from in their lives because what gets measured gets changed. If we consider what nutrition labels did to our lifestyle, we see that they opened up whole new industries; when people have numbers, they can make better decisions. 

“What are some common misconceptions or challenges you've encountered regarding carbon footprint awareness, and how does Clever Carbon address them?”

Michelle Li - One of the challenges I often encounter is, “Well, carbon footprint, you know who invented that term? BP invented it, which tried to put the responsibility on the consumer.” I get that a lot, and I try to share that carbon footprint is science. It's facts. It doesn't matter who brought them up. It's like saying Peloton invented the calories; they just want you to work out, right? No, calories are science; they are calculated. Carbon footprint is calculated based on carbon emissions of a particular activity, whether you're charging your phone or running a company, and that is science, facts and data. So it doesn't matter who invented it and who popularised it. In fact, I'm a little disappointed that BP didn't do a better job of helping people understand that.

Regarding putting the responsibility on the individual, that point is more complicated and nuanced. Still, consumers have a lot of power by voting with their wallets, and we know single-handedly that we've changed entire industries based on reviews and feedback about what we want. If you look at 20 years ago, there were soft drinks like Pepsi and Coca-Cola, which were popular beverages, but with information, we now want healthier options. So, the large companies have now invested in vitamin water, iced teas, and kombucha, right? Customer sentiment is that we want healthier things; the same is true if we want things that have less impact on our planet and are better for our future, companies will go and make those things. So, for those who don't believe in individual action, I can't force you, but at this point, everything matters, whether top-down or bottom-up.

“What tools and resources does Clever Carbon offer to help individuals and businesses measure and reduce their carbon footprint?”

Michelle Li - So, Clever Carbon is focused on helping individuals develop a relationship with carbon. It’s more focused on individuals rather than on the corporations. On the individual side, we have a Carbon Footprint Calculator with just five questions. The idea is to get people used to the concept of “Oh, I have a carbon footprint; I didn't know that; why? I took this quiz. It's because I commute, fly, and eat, and the average carbon footprint in my country is 17.0. My footprint is 16.3. Great, I’m below average, excellent.” But the average consumer will forget that, right? These are not numbers they usually come across. So, this tool is used whenever they want to come in for a refresher. It's straightforward and fast, and there's this outstanding balance between accuracy and actual completion. We want to get more people to complete it, and we will use the baseline average. So, we have a calculator to help people understand their carbon footprint. 

Then we also have a resource called The Coffee Menu. The coffee menu is one of my favourites because every menu is a resource that an individual or a business can print off and display, whether it's in their kitchen or they can display it on the countertop. The idea is to help people understand: “I didn't know coffee had carbon for print, so why is there such a big difference between a latte and a regular coffee? And I didn't know the difference between plant-based and dairy milk and that a paper-cup lid and sleep all have a carbon footprint.” So, I don’t think people think of the coffee menu as a resource, but it's one of the most potent resources because it does so much with one very inviting graphic. And as you look at the coffee menu for a while, you're like, wait a second. Does that mean that beer has a carbon footprint? Is an IPA different from a Pilsner or a Grolsch? What's the difference between the carbon footprints there? Getting people curious and helping connect the dots in a way that doesn't punch you in the face, right?

In terms of other resources, we do have resources for corporations. It's called Clever Actions. It's a free sustainability framework with over 90 actions a company can take to engage their employees. I came from the corporate world, where I worked for large tech companies like Salesforce and DocuSign, and I've experienced firsthand how vital and impactful company culture can be. This is especially true when you embed things like volunteerism, Wellness, mental health, and employee well-being. Those were essential to those companies because they needed to attract and retain talent. Using sustainability as a pillar of employee wellness is like a win for the planet, the company, and the employees. So that's a great resource and all the information is made available for free.

“Can you share some success stories or case studies of individuals or businesses who have significantly reduced their carbon footprint through Clever Carbon's guidance?”

Michelle Li - The simple answer is that we are a straightforward solution; sometimes, companies use our resources, and we don't even know. I don't think reducing carbon emissions is something that one vendor will come in and Snap and then “My god, wow, the lights have come down, and I will reduce our carbon footprint.” It’s not like that; it's very complicated. You have to engage senior management, you have to engage middle management, you have to engage employers, and you have to create budgets, and that's not something that one vendor is going to be able to come in and snap their fingers and do. 

Saying that, we are partners with a global cosmetics company, and they have been producing an ESG report for several years. They engaged with their employees and hired me to do a workshop for them, and they loved it. They then ordered five workshops, and I delivered one of the workshops. Their chief sustainability officer was on the call. Afterwards, they mentioned, “Oh my God, this CSO loved the content you were able to bring carbon in such a relatable way. We want to do more of these.” So, the appetite is growing.

I also have testimonials from other companies I worked with, including the NBA, who gave presentations to their employees. It's inspiring people to care.  One of the key things at Clever Carbon is that we try very hard not to tell people what to do - this is right and wrong. For example, a vegetarian meal or a serving of chicken or beef - this is the carbon footprint here - Make your decision. People don't even know the scale of the difference when every time I say beef is 7,700g of carbon emissions compared to a vegetarian meal, which is around 600g, people are shocked. Getting that information out there will help people better understand the scale and be more open to making small changes. Generally speaking, this is not, “Oh wow, your content made me not turn my lights on at night, and I'm stopping watching Netflix.” It's not like that. It's a journey; for example, when you look at your kitchen, you see that the oven uses a lot of energy. I never thought about that before. It's a journey everyone goes through to get along and figure things out. When more people are on the journey together, we have this accelerated pattern of sharing inspiration and ways of reducing our impact.

“Specifically about CDR, what's the biggest challenge facing CDR’s nature-based/ science-based solutions, and what is required to scale and solve them in 2024?”

Michelle Li - CDR's general challenge is scaling to megaton and then to gigaton. These are challenging problems to solve; land-based solutions are difficult and expensive to scale. Then we have the potential of the oceans, but our oceans today are highly unproductive. They’re acidic and overheated, and it can't do what it does best right now, which is cycling carbon. Oceans store more carbon than the atmosphere itself, and our oceans act as carbon pumps, but the players that make the carbon pump work are gone. So, the whales played such a vital role in the carbon cycle. Not only do they embody a lot of carbon themselves, but when the poop goes to the surface, it fertilises the ocean, it produces phytoplankton blooms and then becomes food for salmon and other fish, and you have this cycle, and then when whales die, they sink to the bottom and keep all the carbon down with them.  They play this vital role, and 97% of our whale population has been wiped out. 

When I think about nature-based solutions, the ones that catch my attention are more on the ocean side because our oceans make up 70% of the planet, and land-based Solutions make up just 30%. 

On land, there's also the social justice part. You're going to grow trees here, and you're going to have enhanced rock weathering on that piece of land. And it could be used for so many other things, and there’s only 30% of it. A great deal of the land, we can't use as its deserts. So when it comes to scale, our oceans offer so much more scale, and with 97% of our whale population disappeared, restoring conditions, repairing our oceans, and increasing the biomass in our oceans can help us scale carbon removal, and that's the message that I'm focused on getting out. There are a lot of challenges with oceans in terms of MRV. Right? How do you prove that? The carbon is stored. We need to have all the tools ready to measure. It's expensive, and the permitting is such a nightmare. It's easier to get permitting to do deep sea mining than it is to run an experiment on ocean or marine CDR. In short, we have to optimise the ocean’s CDR capacity.

“What advice would you offer to individuals and organisations looking to reduce their carbon footprint and embrace sustainability in their daily lives and operations?”

Michelle Li - My unique take is to engage your employees. If an ESG report is out and your employees have yet to learn that you did it, they don't know that you measured your emissions. They need to learn about your social impact initiatives. It isn’t very effective. And so my messaging is to teach employees repeatedly, to have touch points and teach them about things about sustainability about climate, engage them, empower them to take action in their roles to reduce the impact, whether that's putting in an RFP for a new software vendor and including a question around “Do you measure your emissions?” “What are your scope two emissions?” 

How can you tell if a company is greenwashing? Well, they're only sharing their sustainability initiatives with customers, not their employees, right? It starts with employees and becomes a win-win-win situation. It can reduce emissions in their role. It can reduce emissions overall for the organisation. It also helps individuals reduce emissions in their personal lives and create a climate awareness and sustainability culture. So start with your employees.

Unbound Summits’ mission focuses on unrivalled connections, new insights, and unbound CDR opportunities. Learn more about Clever Carbon’s unique approach to carbon literacy here.