Exceptional Books discussion

Hi Everyone,

Here you can write if you think a book on our bookshelf is not "Exceptional" and why. We will not delete those books but will simply add them to a "disputed" category on the bookshelf.

This is not a forum for fighting. I am creating this link because we all know that there are those books that are divided down the middle. Some people love them and some hate them.

Having this category lets our members know that this might be one of "those" books.

Ooh, interesting :) I think there might need to be a discussion thread on exactly what the criteria ARE for it being an EXCEPTIONAL book.

The thing about criteria for what is exceptional is that we all come from different mindsets about what we feel is exceptional. So my guess is that it's whatever each reader thinks fits in this category.

Lisa wrote: "Ooh, interesting :) I think there might need to be a discussion thread on exactly what the criteria ARE for it being an EXCEPTIONAL book."

What do you think are the criteria?

I figured when I put some Stephen King books on the shelf that someone would put it in here right away. Some people think since he writes horror he can't be a quality author or whatever. The exceptional-ness of a book is just a person's opinion.

Re Stephen King: I think his gunslinger series is exceptional! And his early stuff was really good too.

For my part, I consider an exceptional book to be one that is written really well with a great story line (and, Lena, Stephen King is a master writer and storyteller) however, this group is open to everyone, so I invite any discussion on this matter. If any of you think the criteria should be more strict, that's fine, we can define it as we go along.

I do agree with you Lena that, at some point, the "exceptional-ness" of a book comes down to personal opinion. However, the quality of writing and the ability to keep a readers attention because the story is so good goes beyond personal opinion. As avid readers, we know when a book is written well and when a story is good. But then again, there are those books that are divided down the middle. For example, I had in mind the book "The lovely bones". Personally I thought the book was horribly written and I hated the story line. However, there are people who rave about the book and the writing and I shake my head in confusion. Because to me, that was one badly written book.

So if someone put the lovely bones on the bookshelf, I would say, "wait that book stinks..LOL" and we could tag it as a disputed book.

But again, this group is for everyone. So, for my part, I'd like to see everyone make it what they want it to be. What are your thoughts?

My criteria for exceptional books would be a great storyline, characters you can either relate to or feel for (positive or negative) and the book leaves you feeling some sort of strong emotion. For example, I just finished a book I love love loved, and the ending wasn't quite what I expected but I just had a sense of despair for the character, which leaves me ready to read the next book to find out what happens! I also agree it's a matter of opinion!

I look at it like this. Many books have something about them that is exceptional. They may have great characters, or original storylines, or fantastic use of language. Each reader also has something that speaks to them in a story. When a book has more of something you want you will give it 5 stars, which is the only real criterion for an exceptional book.

I know I really love a book with a great storyline, and I definitely appreciate beautifully-expressed prose. And that runs between genres. But what I think is a beautifully-written novel may not agree with what others think is beautifully written. So I say, books that you'd give a 4-5 star rating to -- that would be my idea of an exceptional book.

This is so much fun, actually!

You know, I don't know if its because I've read so many books that I find myself so...um...."picky". I actually hate that I am like that now. I've been listening to books on tape/cd since I was 18. So for 24 years I've been listening to books in the car,or in the house while doing house work, etc. (I don't listen to music).

I think its made me less able to tolerate things (poor writing, poor storyline). It's one of the reasons I started this group. I ended up trashing 5 books this week and I thought....uggg, "I just want a decent book to read!" So I came up with this brilliant idea, LOL, to start an exceptional book club. I knew that my friends on goodreads already know the best books they've read and I thought, "why not make a repository for all those great books and ask members to add them to the bookshelf and then I, and everyone else, will have access to the best books we can think of. And voila! here we are and I'm as happy as a (insert metaphor - I'm trying to stay away from the pig metaphor as I'm on a diet..LOL.

So this is my dilemma, in my personal criteria, i am looking for a well written book with a great story line.

Its so interesting though to hear everyone's idea of what an exceptional book is and this kind of goes back to what Lena was saying that it's really a personal opinion. Maybe it is. It has to do with where we are all at in life and what we're looking for when we pick up a book. This really is interesting to me and a new found awareness that I did not have before!

Maybe when we read a book that another group member has posted we can create a thread for discussion? I would love to hear what others think about books that are on the bookshelf.

Good discussion. I'd say an exceptional book should be one that has a good story line, that stands up to the test of TIME, you can read it at different times in your life and you STILL love it, or it has come down through history & it's still beloved today, like Jane Austen's works, Shakespeare's sonnets & plays, Edgar Allan Poe's gothic horror, Bram Stoker's Dracula, since EVERY vamp storyline through the years was fathered by that single novel, Charles Dickens, he is still being read & loved today, To Kill A Mockingbird is still used & referred to in schools all over the country today & is a time capsule of the way things WERE in the time it was written.

Those are examples of what I would classify as exceptional based on their enduring overall quality, sense of timelessness, being well written, relevancy, execution, and IMPACT on today's literature.

Fiona,

If you believe that "Shogun" is an exceptional book then go ahead and put it on the bookshelf. I've never heard of it, so I look forward to checking it out.

It's funny...You are like Stephen King because he says he will read any book that has a good storyline even if it's not well written. And I think that is very magnanimous of both of you and i wish I was able to do that as well but alas, bad writing is like nails on the chalkboard to me :(

Amy,

Do you have any books in mind that are on the bookshelf already?

Colleen wrote: "Fiona,

If you believe that "Shogun" is an exceptional book then go ahead and put it on the bookshelf. I've never heard of it, so I look forward to checking it out.

It's funny...You are like St..."

Colleen, I'll agree with Fiona about Shogun, it is VERY well written, & Clavell brings you right into that world. It's actually the first book in a trilogy, although neither of the subsequent books can touch the first one. I read it YEARS ago.

Nancy wrote: "Re Stephen King: I think his gunslinger series is exceptional! And his early stuff was really good too."

LOL, I couldn't STAND Gunslinger. A lot of his early work is SO much better than the movies that were churned out when they adapted them to the screen.

Lena wrote: "I figured when I put some Stephen King books on the shelf that someone would put it in here right away. Some people think since he writes horror he can't be a quality author or whatever. The except..."

Just because he's a horror writer doesn't mean he can't be an exceptional author. No one is disputing that he's a modern day master of the genre. I just think that we all may have differing opinions on WHICH of his books should be included since some of them were much better than others, & that's entirely subjective :) I like the more "gory" ones less than I do the more psychological ones.

One way I can better define good writing by saying what its not. I don't like when author's describe something to death! I usually find myself fast-forwarding through the book when this happens. I also don't like when they state the obvious (like what you said about Follett explaining what just happened.
I don't like when the writing is stiff - I tried to read "Graceling" twice now, but the writing seemed so stiff to me I couldn't bring myself to finish the book. It sounded as if a high school student wrote the book.
I know this next complaint doesn't have to do with writing but I really don't like when they create unlikable characters. Like "midnight for charlie bone", I absolutely hated all the characters in the book, event the ones I was supposed to like.

So I guess for me, when I'm talking about "good writing" I probably fall more toward "the technicality of the language" or the ability of the author to deliver the story in a way that's pleasing to the ear. However, the book could be written well and I might hate the storyline, but at that point I would put in my reviews why I didn't like the storyline or characters and I wouldn't complain about the writing.

Colleen wrote: "One way I can better define good writing by saying what its not. I don't like when author's describe something to death! I usually find myself fast-forwarding through the book when this happens. ..."

I agree about the characters. Sometimes I feel shallow for not liking a book simply because I dont like the characters. But if I can't root for the characters to overcome the conflict, the book has no point. Sometimes I hate the characters so much I just want them to die so the book will end, lol...lately I haven't bothered finishing books when that happens.

I also can't stand the overuse of adverbs, and writers who use the same sentence structure over and over with hardly any variety. And when a writer randomly changes tenses all throughout the book for no apparent reason (I'm reading a book like that now--it drives me nuts!). Head hopping also bothers me. So any book with those things would not make it onto my exceptional shelf.

A book I remember for a long time, and remember how much I loved it, is exceptional to me, especially if thinking about it makes me feel exactly how reading it did.

LOL, You're not the only one who feels that way Lena, there have been several books where I wished the main characters would die!

There was this one book I read, "The amulet of Samarkand" where I actually liked the bad guy and hoped he would kill the main character who was a snotty, narcissistic, vindictive little twerp. I think I killed him off in my mind several times, imagining for myself how the bad guy could kill
him LOL.

No specific books at the moment. Maybe we can just create threads as we go or if we see someone is really talking a book up a lot!

I also agree with Colleen about the "picky factor". I do listen to music, but I don't watch television, so I can read 2 or 3 books a week. I have been reading adult fiction for almost 30 years. That adds up to a LOT of books. These days I have very little patience for badly written or formulaic stories. This is why I get so excited when I find a new author whose work is excellent. This year I have been pretty lucky in this department. I discovered Ann Patchett, Lionel Shriver (Author), and Jennifer Egan all of whom have written more than one exceptional book.

I'm a self-proclaimed book snob, but I'd say there's also a difference between books I like and exceptional books. I can like a book and even give it five stars without thinking it's exceptional. Also, I can see a book like, say, Wuthering Heights, which I did not enjoy, and still admit that it has merit as an exceptional book. On the other hand, I might love a silly book like Bridget Jones's Diary, but I would still contest that it's not an exceptional book. So it's a hard thing to define!

And I hope people don't get mad if I got through and put 'contested' on some of the books on the shelf that I disagree with! Are we supposed to do that? Or do we just say it on this thread?

I have often wondered what makes a novel exceptional and here are the 25 criteria that I have found consistently among the best that I have read.

1. Stylistic Invention
2. Craftsmanship
3. Point of View: How Does Narrative Voice Intrigue?
4. Characters: Round or Flat
5. Do You Care What Happens to the Characters?
6. Do You Love or Hate the Protagonist?
7. Credible Dialogue
8. Settings: Sense of Place
9. Verisimilitude: Is It Real?
10. Depth of Scope - Macro or Micro
11. Immersion: Does the Novel Transport?
12. Emotive Range: Comic Wit and/or Tragic Depth
13. Does the Novel Inspire?
14. Originality: Is It Inventive?
15. Subject Matter Expertise: Does It Enlighten?
16. Literary Contribution: How Big a Book Is It?
17. Did the Writer Work Hard Enough?
18. Major Obstacles the Writer Overcame
19. Does the Novel Improve the English Language?
20. Does the Book Transform?
21. Audience Reach
22. Literary Awards a Nice Plus
23. Assess the Total Literary Experience
24. Will the Novel Be Read by the Next Generations?
25. Do You Wish You Had Written This Book?

Heather wrote: "I also agree with Colleen about the "picky factor". I do listen to music, but I don't watch television, so I can read 2 or 3 books a week. I have been reading adult fiction for almost 30 years. Tha..."

Heather, Can you add the books to our bookshelf the books that were written well by these authors. I'd like to take a look at them and put them on my to read list.

Lena wrote: "I'm a self-proclaimed book snob, but I'd say there's also a difference between books I like and exceptional books. I can like a book and even give it five stars without thinking it's exceptional. A..."

That's fine with me Lena if you mark some books contested. But could you create a thread and just quickly say why you think they should be contested, so we have an understanding of your view of the book?

David wrote: "I have often wondered what makes a novel exceptional and here are the 25 criteria that I have found consistently among the best that I have read.

1. Stylistic Invention
2. Craftsmanship
3. Point..."

Wow! That is one comprehensive list! It could definitely serve as an outline of a writing course. Are you a professor of a writing class?

Colleen wrote: "Heather wrote: "I also agree with Colleen about the "picky factor". I do listen to music, but I don't watch television, so I can read 2 or 3 books a week. I have been reading adult fiction for almo..."

I already added A Visit from the Goon Squad but I will add the others right now.

This list is derived from a book that I wrote on criticizing novels:
http://www.amazon.com/Novel-Criticism...
I hope you find that the list proves useful.

Thanks Heather!

David wrote: "This list is derived from a book that I wrote on criticizing novels:
http://www.amazon.com/Novel-Criticism...
I ..."

David, it sounds like you are an expert on exceptional novels, or as close to one gets if you've written an entire book on criticizing novels. Did you add the books on our bookshelf that you think are exceptional novels? If not, please do, I'd love to see what you consider and exceptional novel.

At your request I have added five exceptional books to the group's bookshelf, which are masterpieces. I'm not sure whether you intend to guide this group to highly readable best-sellers, of which this shelf contains many, or genius works. If it's the latter, I can happily recommend more. I think it's wonderful to point serious readers of literary novels to masterpieces. Why waste precious time on anything less?

David wrote: "At your request I have added five exceptional books to the group's bookshelf, which are masterpieces. I'm not sure whether you intend to guide this group to highly readable best-sellers, of which t..."

David, Thank you for adding those books to the bookshelf. I know 3 of the 5 books you've listed so I'll enjoy checking out the other two.

I would rather not choose between highly readable best-sellers and works of Genius, instead I'd like to have a place for them both in this group.

Would you be willing to be a co-moderator of this group and head up that section? We could create a folder and threads just for genius works (or whatever else you'd rather call it) and also place special shelves on the bookshelf for these books. This way, we would have a section just for people who are serious readers of literary novels.

I could probably point people to some exceptional classics but I'm not as well versed in those as I am in popular fiction. So, let me know if you're interested, I'd be great to have you as a co-moderator!

I'm all in.

David wrote: "I'm all in."

Great! I'll make you a co-moderator after I finish this note. Feel free to start new folders and threads as you see fit. If you have any questions just let me know. Thanks again :)

I've read 24-25 of the books on the bookshelves. Somes I really loved, some I didn't, but it's a decent mix of classics & bestsellers.

David, I am very much interested to see the other books you are going to add. I'm more partial to those types of books now, & the 1001 Books to Read Before You Die list plus the Banned/Challenged books lists, several out there, are the books I am setting myself to read now. Quite a few that I see on the bookshelf I'm going to read at some point in time, others seem to be so popular right now I'm not going to go with the flow while they're being hyped to death.

David wrote: "I'm all in."

Hot diggity!

Glad you can join us to moderate David. I'm sure there are many people in the group who will appreciate what you can share with everyone. I definitely think this needs to be a well rounded group, something for everyone. While I don't read many "masterpieces" I read a variety of things and enjoy what I do read. I don't want to see our wonderful new group be too limiting, so having a section for everyone is a great idea!

What about creating a category for "fluffy" kind of reads? I know that there's a dispute over City of Bones- which I haven't read. Which made me start to think of a category for fluff reads- books that aren't literary, but are fun, easy to read, got you out of a reading slump, etc. Books should be able to just be fun, right? With no higher purpose but to entertain. I think we all like those kinds of books on occasion, or at least I do.

I agree Shay and I'd be happy to create one for anyone who is interested! I know I'll definitely chat over there.

I have to confess a strong bias for literary novels over best-sellers and mainstream commercial novels, and so will be moderating that forum with the objective of developing a Top 100 Literary Novels List. I wish you good luck with fluffy novels as the most important objective is to bring curious minds to good reads. That means different things to different people. I certainly respect what you seek to accomplish here.

David wrote: "I have often wondered what makes a novel exceptional and here are the 25 criteria that I have found consistently among the best that I have read..."

It's hard to argue with these, but I suspect as individuals we would rate their importance differently.

20. Does the Book Transform?

For me this is perhaps the most important. If a books causes me to think or feel differently about something, it is exceptional, esp for an old dog.

21. Audience Reach

I'm not sure about this. Does a wide audience reach need a book to be written for the average reader?

24. Will the Novel Be Read by the Next Generations?

Important, but there are current or past topical books that can be exceptional. They just might require some homework?

I would add 25. Does a book improve with age? IE, if I read a book once a decade, do I find more or different meaning every time? Does it stand up to my changes?

Sometimes the book can be incredibly depressing, but still be well written with good characters. The Road by Cormac McCarthy is an incredibly dark book, but the storyline is completely believable and could happen, not that we want to face that kind of reality. It was one I couldn't put down until I finished. However, because it was so dark, not everyone liked it.

I think everyone has their own opinion about what constitutes a good book.I believe well written strong plot,interesting story are all important criteria for any book. I don't really think the genre matters that much. Lucy @12:30 on9-17-11

Several people have suggested making a list and even though it is subjective, I think pooling the resources of discerning people (those who care enough to want such books) is an excellent idea. I will, with fear and trepidation, propose some non-fiction "rules."
1. Show evidence of research into as much original material as possible, not snippets from secondary or third-hand sources.
2. Original evidence and conclusions are preferable to constantly quoting experts or relying on their research instead of the author's own. We need expert opinions, but we also need the author to become an expert if he is passionate about a subject.
3. Honesty and accuracy have got to be criteria for exceptional literature. Don't accept a writer who leaves something out that's true just because it doesn't support his position. Don't accept his spin, his skew or his ridicule. Expect him to explain it, debunk it, or put it in true perspective.
4. An author of an exceptional work should not hide his perspective. He believes something. He has standards. Whatever is critically important to him should be clear in what he writes.
5. It should not be full of opinions, rants or emotion. If the author wants to persuade me, he had better not insult the opposing view, dismiss it as absurd or unimportant, or cry "hatred" because his opposition is "attacking" him.

I only put one book on the shelf, because although I really loved quite a few other books I wasn't quite sure that they could be classed as exceptional. But, since I can't stop raving about Behind the Hood I thought that this one could be my contribution. Let me know what you think about it. Though, a warning, as the blurb says it isn't for the fainthearted and is very intense reading. The author doesn't hold anything back, giving a vivid portrayal of a harsh environment. But, in saying this, this was one of the reasons why I loved it so much, as well as the clever dialogue, the characters, and the way in which all their stories came together at the end.

Lucy wrote: "I think everyone has their own opinion about what constitutes a good book.I believe well written strong plot,interesting story are all important criteria for any book. I don't really think the genr..."

I agree.

Monica wrote: "Sometimes the book can be incredibly depressing, but still be well written with good characters. The Road by Cormac McCarthy is an incredibly dark book, but the storyline is completely believable ..."

I agree with that. "Behind the Hood" is a very dark book, but it was unputdownable. So, your suggestion of "The Road" might be for me. I'll go add it to my to-read list.

The Road is amazing. I'm a big fan of McCarthy's, but this is hands down my favorite. Chilling and disturbing, but amazing.