Future OLED Tech. (Was: Tandem OLED, the next big thing...)

[OrangeCream]

LG has two layers of blue to compensate for the current weak blue.

If you double red and green, then it's imbalanced again, because you don't have enough blue anymore, and more expensive/impractical because you are now up to 6 layers.

Plus blue is still going to burn in at the current rate, so you have added cost and complexity for no real benefit.

Obviously you need to double blue as well. That’s the whole point of Apple’s tandem oled here.

Either you double the blue layers or you double the size of the blue pixels.

That’s the only reason Apple’s OLED panel is unique. They’re willing to do this when LG and Samsung aren’t. You said there are no gains and that’s obviously untrue.

You either get a brighter TV, more dynamic range, or longer lifespan if you double every emission layer.

 

[ScifiGeek]

Obviously you need to double blue as well. That’s the whole point of Apple’s tandem oled here.

Either you double the blue layers or you double the size of the blue pixels.

That’s the only reason Apple’s OLED panel is unique. They’re willing to do this when LG and Samsung aren’t. You said there are no gains and that’s obviously untrue.

You either get a brighter TV, more dynamic range, or longer lifespan if you double every emission layer.

But iPad Tandem only has 2 layers. LG is already at 4 layers and Samsung at 3 Layers, so they already have more than Mobile Tandem.

More layers don't come for free. It's almost certainly impractical and or uneconomical to go to 6-8 layers. I don't see that happening.

PHOLED is looking like the next step. Note that benefit the first describe for PHOLED is reducing layers...

 

[OrangeCream]

But iPad Tandem only has 2 layers. LG is already at 4 layers and Samsung at 3 Layers, so they already have more than Mobile Tandem.

Except they don’t. They both use multiple blue layers but only a single red or green, or none at all.

Samsung only has blue, which is hugely wasteful because they then convert blue to red or green using quantum dots. They would get far more benefit in terms of energy efficiency if they can replace some of the blue OLED with red and green OLED. LG’s design uses two blue layers instead of a double sized blue OLED, but would likewise see a lifespan, burn in, or brightness benefit if they doubled all their layers.

More layers don't come for free. It's almost certainly impractical and or uneconomical to go to 6-8 layers. I don't see that happening.

Sure it’s not economical. That is the only reason Apple is the only one doing it for now, because they pass the cost on to the consumer.

PHOLED is looking like the next step. Note that benefit the first describe for PHOLED is reducing layers...

And again the other obvious benefit as explicitly mentioned in the article is to continue to use the same number of layers for increased brightness, with the unspoken benefit that the panel life is higher if brightness isn’t boosted.

I’m not disagreeing that blue PHOLED wont be a huge advancement. I’m saying the benefits of tandem OLED don’t disappear with blue PHOLED.

 

[ScifiGeek]

Except they don’t. They both use multiple blue layers but only a single red or green, or none at all.

Layers are layers, and the expense and complexity of laying them down will be similar.

Samsung only has blue, which is hugely wasteful because they then convert blue to red or green using quantum dots. They would get far more benefit in terms of energy efficiency if they can replace some of the blue OLED with red and green OLED

That will change dramatically when PHOLED arrives and those blue pixels shoot up in efficiency. Perhaps the current design is just a step on the roadmap that planned for PHOLED.

 

[OrangeCream]

Layers are layers, and the expense and complexity of laying them down will be similar.

Again yes the construction is similar but the outcome isn’t.

For the outcome to be the same they need to double their current layer count. Meaning instead of two blue, one red, and one green you would need 4/2/2, or instead of three blue you would need six.

That will change dramatically when PHOLED arrives and those blue pixels shoot up in efficiency. Perhaps the current design is just a step on the roadmap that planned for PHOLED.

Except it isn’t. In Apple’s case a blue PHOLED means less energy lost as heat, more energy transformed into blue light, but no change in red or green.

So their need to double red, blue, and green layers are the same, with the difference being they can shrink the size of their blue pixels. If a blue PHOLED is twice as bright, then Apple can shrink the blue pixel in half, and still use two layers to improve brightness and longevity.

Because blue PHOLED doesn’t increase the durability of the design if it’s run at full brightness. The only way to increase durability is to have twice as many elements run at half the duty cycle.

 

[ScifiGeek]

Again yes the construction is similar but the outcome isn’t.

For the outcome to be the same they need to double their current layer count. Meaning instead of two blue, one red, and one green you would need 4/2/2, or instead of three blue you would need six.

The construction is so different, that those comments are meaningless.

QD-OLED only uses Blue, So you can compare Blue to Blue directly. QD-OLED is using 3 layers, and Tandem only uses 2, so QD-OLED is already more complex. "Tandem" would be a downgrade, not an upgrade.

Tandem simply doesn't apply to more complex WOLED/QD-OLED monitors and TVs.

It only applies an upgrade to ultra simple, single layer mobile screens, not to the more complex multi-layer monitors and TVs.

 

[OrangeCream]

The construction is so different, that those comments are meaningless.

QD-OLED only uses Blue, So you can compare Blue to Blue directly. QD-OLED is using 3 layers, and Tandem only uses 2, so QD-OLED is already more complex. "Tandem" would be a downgrade, not an upgrade.

Tandem simply doesn't apply to more complex WOLED/QD-OLED monitors and TVs.

It only applies an upgrade to ultra simple, single layer mobile screens, not to the more complex multi-layer monitors and TVs.

I’m not making that argument.

I’m saying if Samsung wants longer lived panels with less burn in they should increase the layer count a decrease how bright they drive each layer.

Longevity And Burn-In Investigation: 10-Month Results

It has been about ten months since we started our long-term accelerated longevity and burn-in test, and our 100+ TVs and monitors have cumulated over 500,000 hours of runtime.

www.rtings.com

 

[ScifiGeek]

I’m saying if Samsung wants longer lived panels with less burn in they should increase the layer count a decrease how bright they drive each layer.

Three layers is already a lot, and cost containment is always an issue. As I said before:

"That will change dramatically when PHOLED arrives and those blue pixels shoot up in efficiency. Perhaps the current design is just a step on the roadmap that planned for PHOLED."

They were likely always planning PHOLED to drastically improve the design, with the current design being a "Good Enough" stopgap, but ideally place for the PHOLED upgrade.

When PHOLED arrives it's going to be a big jump for Samsung, not so much for LG, in the meantime it's competitive with LG.

 

[OrangeCream]

They were likely always planning PHOLED to drastically improve the design, with the current design being a "Good Enough" stopgap, but ideally place for the PHOLED upgrade.

When PHOLED arrives it's going to be a big jump for Samsung, not so much for LG, in the meantime it's competitive with LG.

Blue pholed doesn’t eliminate the need for multiple layers, only the need for as many. If a blue pholed is three times as bright and the same life then Samsung can probably reduce their stack to two layers for a premium panel and one for a budget panel.

 

[w00key]

What's that worship of shit that isn't in production? Sure tandem existed forever on paper or on super small scale, but now is the first time a consumer tablet has 1000 nits of sustained brightness. Yay LG for supplying a panel that can do that and boo Samsung's latest Tab S9 getting stuck at 400.

Sure in a few years we'll have something better. We'll see by then. For now tandem is king of OLED.


And sure tandem isn't a new idea, compare tandem:



with triple layer QD-OLED



Both have multiple HTL ETL, tandem has 2, QD-OLED has 3. Too bad it's still rather inefficient even with applying this trick twice, Rtings has it at +65% power usage (S95C vs G3) and lower brightness.

LG WOLED without tandem in TV's is already competitive with triple layer / double tandem QD-OLED, so if LG decides having just MLA (like in LG G3 TV) isn't enough, they could go tandem for crazy increased output, and maybe finally be CNN-proof in the accelerated aging test.

 

[ScifiGeek]

Blue pholed doesn’t eliminate the need for multiple layers, only the need for as many. If a blue pholed is three times as bright and the same life then Samsung can probably reduce their stack to two layers for a premium panel and one for a budget panel.

I didn't say it eliminates the need for layers. Just that Blue PHOLED is more advantageous for Samsungs all Blue design.

If Samsung keep three layers, they will have a massive improvement in efficiency, brightness and durability. Even if they go to two layers they would likely still get improvements, but to a lesser degree. It's very unlikely they would go single layer.

For LG, the most likely thing they will do is remove one blue layers and essentially have the same specs the do already, or they really have to rethink their design and possibly get rid of WOLED based system.

 

[ScifiGeek]

LG WOLED without tandem in TV's is already competitive with triple layer / double tandem QD-OLED, so if LG decides having just MLA (like in LG G3 TV) isn't enough, they could go tandem for crazy increased output, and maybe finally be CNN-proof in the accelerated aging test.

LG WOLED is already using 4 layers per subpixel. Each Subpixel has layers for R, G, B, B. Two blue to compensate for the current non PHOLED blue. Together the 4 layers make white, then they put color filters on top to make R, G, B (and leave one unfiltered to make white).

LG design isn't very efficient either, but the uses that unfiltered white pixel to compensate for it.

 

[w00key]

LG WOLED is already using 4 layers per subpixel. Each Subpixel has layers for R, G, B, B. Two blue to compensate for the current non PHOLED blue. Together the 4 layers make white, then they put color filters on top to make R, G, B (and leave one unfiltered to make white).

LG design isn't very efficient either, but the uses that unfiltered white pixel to compensate for it.

Got a source for that?

And their product, as in, thing you can buy in a store is far more efficient and that's all that counts.

Wake me up when PHOLED makes it into a product and not just a word / hopes and dreams.

 

[ScifiGeek]

Got a source for that?

I found better ones before, but just Searching "LG White OLED Stack" will show you something like this. EML stands for Emissive Layer. 4 Layers: Apparently the Green is a Yellow-Green.

And the new EVO panels apparently are 5 layers. They now have a Green and Yellow green layers:

OLED evo, tutte le novità dentro il nuovo pannello OLED dei TV LG

LG ha rilasciato nuove informazioni sul pannello utilizzato nella nuova serie G1 di televisori OLED. La tecnologia è sempre White OLED, ma l'evoluzione evocata dal nome è data dall'accoppiamento tra nuovi materiali e un nuovo processore.

www.dday.it

DSCC - AMOLED Materials Market Will Grow to $2.5 Billion by 2025 - Japan Site

www.displaysupplychain.co.jp

And their product, as in, thing you can buy in a store is far more efficient and that's all that counts.

QD-OLED may be less efficient than LG WOLED, but no one seems to care.

Wake me up when PHOLED makes it into a product and not just a word / hopes and dreams.

Maybe avoid titles like "Next big thing" if you don't want to hear about future tech.

 

[w00key]

Maybe avoid titles like "Next big thing" if you don't want to hear about future tech.

The original title refers to a thing that is entering mass production stage. PHOLED may be forever a few years away.

But whatever. Good luck evangelizing it.

 

[ttnuagmada]

What's that worship of shit that isn't in production? Sure tandem existed forever on paper or on super small scale, but now is the first time a consumer tablet has 1000 nits of sustained brightness. Yay LG for supplying a panel that can do that and boo Samsung's latest Tab S9 getting stuck at 400.

Sure in a few years we'll have something better. We'll see by then. For now tandem is king of OLED.


And sure tandem isn't a new idea, compare tandem:

View attachment 84884

with triple layer QD-OLED

View attachment 84885

Both have multiple HTL ETL, tandem has 2, QD-OLED has 3. Too bad it's still rather inefficient even with applying this trick twice, Rtings has it at +65% power usage (S95C vs G3) and lower brightness.

LG WOLED without tandem in TV's is already competitive with triple layer / double tandem QD-OLED, so if LG decides having just MLA (like in LG G3 TV) isn't enough, they could go tandem for crazy increased output, and maybe finally be CNN-proof in the accelerated aging test.

Tandem doing 1000 nits full screen is 100% a product of being a tiny screen. If you made a 65in one, it would need over a thousand watts to do a 1000 nit full field. OLED panels are all capable of their highlight peak at full field. It's all a power consumption/heat issue. These companies are all using roughly the same materials. There is nothing magical about Tandem. It gains some efficiency from not needing an RGB filter, that's literally it. a 2 layer Tandem isn't going to be more burn-in resistant than a 4 layer QD-OLED.

 

[ttnuagmada]

Blue pholed doesn’t eliminate the need for multiple layers, only the need for as many. If a blue pholed is three times as bright and the same life then Samsung can probably reduce their stack to two layers for a premium panel and one for a budget panel.

Blue PHOLED still has lifetime issues. You'll see it in phones and tablets first because it's main benefit will be efficiency starting out, and phone/tablet use cases are less concerned with burn-in. It's not a direct improvement to blue FOLED (yet).

 

[ttnuagmada]

Except they don’t. They both use multiple blue layers but only a single red or green, or none at all.

Samsung only has blue, which is hugely wasteful because they then convert blue to red or green using quantum dots. They would get far more benefit in terms of energy efficiency if they can replace some of the blue OLED with red and green OLED. LG’s design uses two blue layers instead of a double sized blue OLED, but would likewise see a lifespan, burn in, or brightness benefit if they doubled all their layers.

Sure it’s not economical. That is the only reason Apple is the only one doing it for now, because they pass the cost on to the consumer.


And again the other obvious benefit as explicitly mentioned in the article is to continue to use the same number of layers for increased brightness, with the unspoken benefit that the panel life is higher if brightness isn’t boosted.

I’m not disagreeing that blue PHOLED wont be a huge advancement. I’m saying the benefits of tandem OLED don’t disappear with blue PHOLED.

QD's have north of a 95% conversion efficiency. QD-OLED's are using 4 layers right now (3 blue FOLED and a green PHOLED). It's a little less efficient just because it's still using FOLED for 3/4's of the EMLs.

 

[ScifiGeek]

The original title refers to a thing that is entering mass production stage. PHOLED may be forever a few years away.

But whatever. Good luck evangelizing it.

The original post, was referring to getting Tandem benefits on Monitors, and TVs, which is not entering mass production, and probably never will because it doesn't really fit how they are constructed. Which is what the edit mentioned, so the next big thing is more likely to be PHOLED than Tandem, which is really only about mobile.

 

[ScifiGeek]

QD's have north of a 95% conversion efficiency. QD-OLED's are using 4 layers right now (3 blue FOLED and a green PHOLED). It's a little less efficient just because it's still using FOLED for 3/4's of the EMLs.

I haven't seen green emitter in QD-OLED. Where did you find that info?

 

[ttnuagmada]

I haven't seen green emitter in QD-OLED. Where did you find that info?

I posted earlier in the thread. Though it has a typo. The smaller stacks are guesses as to what they'll do with pholed.

 

[ScifiGeek]

I posted earlier in the thread. Though it has a typo. The smaller stacks are guesses as to what they'll do with pholed.

Ok, but what is the source because it contradicts the rest like the one here:

QD-OLED Production to Start without Endorsement of Samsung Visual

Samsung Display and its sister companies, Samsung Mobile and Samsung Visual have been conflicted over the last couple of years. Samsung Mobile wants a second source for OLED panels and has reached out to SDC competitor’ BOE seeking lower price panel replacements for some of their models. BOE...

displaydaily.com

Which highlights a problem with mixing in green. Because the Blue Subpixel is reported to be unfiltered cover. If they are using blue QDs to change the light then it's a non issue, but if it's just a clear cover then adding green layer to Blue makes is a very strange blue, and I think we would have seen artifact of this.

 

[ttnuagmada]

Ok, but what is the source because it contradicts the rest like the one here:

QD-OLED Production to Start without Endorsement of Samsung Visual

Samsung Display and its sister companies, Samsung Mobile and Samsung Visual have been conflicted over the last couple of years. Samsung Mobile wants a second source for OLED panels and has reached out to SDC competitor’ BOE seeking lower price panel replacements for some of their models. BOE...

displaydaily.com

Which highlights a problem with mixing in green. Because the Blue Subpixel is reported to be unfiltered cover. If they are using blue QDs to change the light then it's a non issue, but if it's just a clear cover then adding green layer to Blue makes is a very strange blue, and I think we would have seen artifact of this.

That was gen 1. Gen 2 is when they added it. The tell is this bump in the Blue SPD. It still hits rec 2020 blue saturation without an issue, and doesn't affect red and green due to the QD's, so there's no real affect on color gamut/volume. It simply let them increase brightness in an efficient way since the green EML is PHOLED. I don't think there's anything official out there, but this is what the smart people think is going on (this pic is off of Vincent Teoh's twitter).

 

[OrangeCream]

Blue PHOLED still has lifetime issues. You'll see it in phones and tablets first because it's main benefit will be efficiency starting out, and phone/tablet use cases are less concerned with burn-in. It's not a direct improvement to blue FOLED (yet).

Which is why I keep mentioning multiple emission layers being necessary to solve the lifetime issues regardless of whether the blue layer is phosphorus or fluorescent.

A PHOLED would only reduce the number of layers, but you would still need at least two ala tandem OLED to decrease burn, increase brightness, and increase longevity.

 

[OrangeCream]

QD's have north of a 95% conversion efficiency. QD-OLED's are using 4 layers right now (3 blue FOLED and a green PHOLED). It's a little less efficient just because it's still using FOLED for 3/4's of the EMLs.

So to increase longevity by driving each layer at a lower voltage, you would need 6 blue FOLED and 2 green PHOLED.

 

[ttnuagmada]

So to increase longevity by driving each layer at a lower voltage, you would need 6 blue FOLED and 2 green PHOLED.

Tandem burn-in is still limited by the 2 blue FOLED's being used.

 

[ttnuagmada]

Which is why I keep mentioning multiple emission layers being necessary to solve the lifetime issues regardless of whether the blue layer is phosphorus or fluorescent.

A PHOLED would only reduce the number of layers, but you would still need at least two ala tandem OLED to decrease burn, increase brightness, and increase longevity.

Blue PHOLED won't reduce layers at all until lifetimes are near FOLED

 

[OrangeCream]

Tandem burn-in is still limited by the 2 blue FOLED's being used.

No, why do you say that?

I’m getting all mixed up now between FOLED and PHOLED but the general understanding I have is that a newer blue OLED technology that is able to transform more energy into light, and less heat, is being developed. Said blue OLED would reduce the number of necessary layers at the same brightness as the current blue OLEDs and feature longer lifespans due to less heat degradation.

Burn in then can be reduced by using two layers, rather than one, and driving each layer at even lower voltage to further reduce heat degradation.

 

[ttnuagmada]

No, why do you say that?

I’m getting all mixed up now between FOLED and PHOLED but the general understanding I have is that a newer blue OLED technology that is able to transform more energy into light, and less heat, is being developed. Said blue OLED would reduce the number of necessary layers at the same brightness as the current blue OLEDs and feature longer lifespans due to less heat degradation.

Burn in then can be reduced by using two layers, rather than one, and driving each layer at even lower voltage to further reduce heat degradation.

It's been "being developed" for over a decade.

The issue is that blue PHOLED doesn't match blue FOLED's life-span at a given brightness. less energy/heat are great, which is why we'll probably see it adopted in phones/tablets sooner rather than later, but it's also why we won't see it in TV's in the near-term, and why we definitely won't see it reducing layers.

It will probably catch up at some point, but until its at least close, I don't think we'll see it in TV's and monitors, especially with the brightness wars the way they are. reduction in layers only happens when brightness lifetimes catch up to blue FOLED.

 

[OrangeCream]

It's been "being developed" for over a decade.

The issue is that blue PHOLED doesn't match blue FOLED's life-span at a given brightness. less energy/heat are great, which is why we'll probably see it adopted in phones/tablets sooner rather than later, but it's also why we won't see it in TV's in the near-term, and why we definitely won't see it reducing layers.

It will probably catch up at some point, but until its at least close, I don't think we'll see it in TV's and monitors, especially with the brightness wars the way they are. reduction in layers only happens when brightness lifetimes catch up to blue FOLED.

But everything you say is already true of blue OLED. To compensate for lower efficiency, brightness, and durability you use larger or more blue pixels and multiple blue layers.

There has to be some benefit to PHOLED. It’s either cost, efficiency, durability, or performance. If none of those are true then obviously no one will use it.

Given how red and green PHOLED already need to be doubled for Apple then it stands to reason that blue will too, regardless of what type it is.

 

[redleader]

QD's have north of a 95% conversion efficiency. QD-OLED's are using 4 layers right now (3 blue FOLED and a green PHOLED). It's a little less efficient just because it's still using FOLED for 3/4's of the EMLs.

Probably you mean 95% quantum efficiency, meaning that 95% of blue photons are successfully converted into another color. But changing a 460nm photon with an energy of 2.7 eV into a 630nm red photon with an energy of 2 eV still wastes 0.7 eV per photon, giving it a maximum possible energy conversion efficiency of 2/2.7 = 74%. Green can be up to 85% efficient, so not quite so bad, but thermodynamics will never allow a 95% efficient conversion since the whole conservation of energy thing. This is the reason you see interest in dedicated R/G pixels, although they have their own problems.

 

[ttnuagmada]

But everything you say is already true of blue OLED. To compensate for lower efficiency, brightness, and durability you use larger or more blue pixels and multiple blue layers.

There has to be some benefit to PHOLED. It’s either cost, efficiency, durability, or performance. If none of those are true then obviously no one will use it.

Given how red and green PHOLED already need to be doubled for Apple then it stands to reason that blue will too, regardless of what type it is.

I'm confused at what you're confused about. That was all specifically in regards to why no one's going to reduce layers with it (yet). if it's going to last half as long, then you're not going to use less of them. When lifetimes get up to speed, they'll be able to do it, but not yet. In the meantime, a blue PHOLED is still probably good enough to be used in a phone screen where people toss them after a couple of years anyway, and in that situation, the screen would be a lot more efficient and thus increase battery life.

 

[OrangeCream]

I'm confused at what you're confused about. That was all specifically in regards to why no one's going to reduce layers with it (yet). if it's going to last half as long, then you're not going to use less of them. When lifetimes get up to speed, they'll be able to do it, but not yet. In the meantime, a blue PHOLED is still probably good enough to be used in a phone screen where people toss them after a couple of years anyway, and in that situation, the screen would be a lot more efficient and thus increase battery life.

I don’t think I’m confused, I have no disagreement with anything you’ve said.

I was originally responding to SciFiGeek. He is the one who thinks PHOLED is going to change everything, and I disagree with him, because any advantages PHOLED brings to the table don’t change the product requirements that necessitate two red and green layers. If you need two red and green, which are already PHOLED, they you still need multiple blue as well.

 

[ScifiGeek]

I don’t think I’m confused, I have no disagreement with anything you’ve said.

I was originally responding to SciFiGeek. He is the one who thinks PHOLED is going to change everything, and I disagree with him, because any advantages PHOLED brings to the table don’t change the product requirements that necessitate two red and green layers. If you need two red and green, which are already PHOLED, they you still need multiple blue as well.

The current Blue layers are so inefficient that they are responsible for most of the power used and heat created.

If you replace the current blue with PHOLED blue, OLED gets much more efficient and cooler running.

 

[ttnuagmada]

The current Blue layers are so inefficient that they are responsible for most of the power used and heat created.

If you replace the current blue with PHOLED blue, OLED gets much more efficient and cooler running.

It does, but blue PHOLED lifespan is barely over have of blue FOLED currently.

 

[ScifiGeek]

It does, but blue PHOLED lifespan is barely over have of blue FOLED currently.

Do you have insider info from UDC on this? Because anything publicly available is going to be old news, and as of their last earnings report, UDC (Supplier of the Red and Green PHOLED material that everyone uses) was still confident they were going to ship Blue PHOLED this year.

This was the latest from UDC:

Universal Display reports excellent financial results for Q1 2024 | OLED-Info

Universal Display announced its financial results for the first quarter of 2024. Total revenues were $165.3 million (up from $130.5 million in Q1 2023), and a net income of $56.9 million (up from $39.8 million).UDC says it seas meaningful growth opportunities across several verticals: the IT...

www.oled-info.com

During the conference call, UDC reported it is making excellent progress on its commercial PHOLED blue emitter system, and believes it is still on track to introduce a commercially-ready system later in 2024 - which is good news as earlier reports suggested UDC is facing technical challenges and will delay the introduction.

I would expect the challenges/progress is about durability, and they aren't going to ship until it reaches some acceptable target.

Less than half does NOT seem acceptable as it would not be suitable for any current designs.

 

[ttnuagmada]

Do you have insider info from UDC on this? Because anything publicly available is going to be old news, and as of their last earnings report, UDC (Supplier of the Red and Green PHOLED material that everyone uses) was still confident they were going to ship Blue PHOLED this year.

This was the latest from UDC:

Universal Display reports excellent financial results for Q1 2024 | OLED-Info

Universal Display announced its financial results for the first quarter of 2024. Total revenues were $165.3 million (up from $130.5 million in Q1 2023), and a net income of $56.9 million (up from $39.8 million).UDC says it seas meaningful growth opportunities across several verticals: the IT...

www.oled-info.com

I would expect the challenges/progress is about durability, and they aren't going to ship until it reaches some acceptable target.

Less than half does NOT seem acceptable as it would not be suitable for any current designs.

Not less than half, Samsung claimed about 55% at the end of 23. That's the last number anyone has put out there. That's probably enough for a phone in single layer. And it would be fine for Tandem in laptops/tablets assuming you weren't shooting for sky-high nits like Apple, you could probably get the current performance/lifetimes out it compared to single layer, with reduced power usage.

It's not enough for a TV/monitor though. Also, companies being "confident" about their timelines in earnings reports are meaningless. Look at Intel and their fab claims over the years. They may very well have it in products, but not in a form that will replace blue FOLED across the board (I hope I'm wrong), I think we're probably still a few years out from it completely overtaking blue FOLED.

 

[ScifiGeek]

It's not enough for a TV/monitor though. Also, companies being "confident" about their timelines in earnings reports are meaningless. Look at Intel and their fab claims over the years. They may very well have it in products, but not in a form that will replace blue FOLED across the board (I hope I'm wrong), I think we're probably still a few years out from it completely overtaking blue FOLED.

It's still probably coming soon, if they are telling people in Earnings report that they expect it in 2024. That might slip to 2025, but not to 2028. This really doesn't seem like an Intel situation.

The real point is that regardless of when it ships, it really has to be better than about half. We are talking about compared to already poor performing FOLED blue. If it was near half that, you would have to essentially double blue again (layers or size) so that just seems like a complete non starter.

I expect when UDC ships a commercial Blue PHOLED, it will essentially need to be a near match to the current FOLED Blue.

 

[ttnuagmada]

It's still probably coming soon, if they are telling people in Earnings report that they expect it in 2024. That might slip to 2025, but not to 2028. This really doesn't seem like an Intel situation.

Or it could be an Intel situation where they "launch" it, but its in a limited amount of products due to its usability.

The real point is that regardless of when it ships, it really has to be better than about half. We are talking about compared to already poor performing FOLED blue. If it was near half that, you would have to essentially double blue again (layers or size) so that just seems like a complete non starter.

I expect when UDC ships a commercial Blue PHOLED, it will essentially need to be a near match to the current FOLED Blue.

They don't need it to match initially. blue FOLED has improved a lot over the years. 55% of current blue FOLED is still usable in the right applications and is probably comparable to where blue FOLED was 5-6 years ago. It's not usable in a TV where absolute performance and longevity are mandatory, but in a device like a phone, where battery life is a huge deal, it makes sense to use.

 

[Semi On]

That makes sense. Driving two pixels (sets of transistors) takes more power.

JFYI: I'm about 99% sure it was the lack of a -9V rail.