David Lopes lived in Tokyo while he served as a board member for the Aeon Topval supermarket company. He wrote a very personal book about this experience: A Balcony Over Tokyo, (Avenida da Liberdade Editora) – in Portuguese, Englsih and japanese. Beniko Tanaka is a Japanese shadow theatre artist and she has been living in Lisbon for 18 years. They met at the Mensagem office to explore the differences and similarities between the two cities: Tokyo and Lisbon. It was a flavorful conversation full of ideas.
In the foreword, the writer Valter Hugo Mãe mentions that this book carries “joy in its narrative” and a “wondrous love.” He uses these words at different times. Given that you’ve lived in many cities, David, why was this one so special that it inspired a book?
David Lopes – I felt less lost in Tokyo than the first time I lived abroad, a long time ago, in Poznań in Poland. It was a much smaller city. But I felt more lost in Poznań than in Tokyo. Maybe there were fewer signs in English than what I found in Tokyo. The subway is also in English, right? So, at a certain point, I would say I felt less lost in the sense that wherever I went, there was always a way to know where I was. And obviously, when we have internet in our pocket, that helps too. And then, we can also read what we’re going to buy in the supermarket. Before, I couldn’t maybe distinguish a box of breakfast cereal from a detergent. It could be like that, I’m exaggerating a bit, but this is somewhat the image.
Actually, you don’t feel alone anywhere these days. Or strange anywhere.
Beniko Tanaka – That’s the feeling I needed to experience, so in 2005, 18 years ago, I started living here. In Tokyo, everything is almost automatic. Even opening the door. Even entering the bathroom. Opening the lid. Everything. Everything automatic. Everything automatic. And I wanted to learn what I could do…
And Lisbon was quite different from what it is today, back in 2005.
BT – I travelled here for th first time in 2002. So… Yes, I remember perfectly. I was walking around, and I was asking: is this the capital of a country? There were zero people in Baixa at night. Much less lighting. I was scared, but at the same time, I felt the atmosphere… And as we are animals, right? We’re biological. So, when I feel something different, it wakes me up! And then, I thought, I wanted to re-educate myself in Portugal.
DL – Is it true, or is it too romanticized, that the Japanese have a growing interest in Portugal?
BT – Yes.
DL – Is it true that they talk about the Portuguese in school? About our history when we arrived in Japan? Is that so?
BT – Yes, in Japanese elementary school, we learn about the history of the first Westerners to arrive, who were Portuguese. And then the famous Saint Francis Xavier, we call him “Tzabier”…
DL – Is he the most famous Portuguese in Japan?
BT – Yes, indeed he is. Everyone learns about him from a young age.
DL – Once I saw a phone case with Saint Francis Xavier, I bought it!
BT – And then we talk about how some Japanese, or Japanese children, guided by Jesuits, went to Portugal… and they went on a tour.
DL – Yes. They went to Rome, it was crazy. Yes. It was the most exotic thing in the world, wasn’t it? And they were dressed in Japanese attire, with kimonos and everything, and so the Pope wanted to meet them. Yes. He received them twice, I think.
BT – They stayed in the Church of São Roque. Then Sintra, Coimbra, Vila Viçosa – the house of the Braganza. And then went by boat to Rome. We learn all of this.
DL – And that’s why I felt a big difference. I never met a Japanese person I talked to about my country who didn’t know where my country was. In the United States, half of the people I talked to didn’t know. So, many guessed it was in South America. They didn’t even understand what I was saying. Many times, even Ronaldo was more known than my country. This is not a caricature, it’s true. I never met a Japanese person I talked to who didn’t know where Portugal was. Everyone knew. In Europe, close to Spain… Now, indeed, it’s extraordinary because we’re talking about a country that’s on the other side of the world, isn’t it? And so, something must exist. Indeed, we arrived there with a religious project, for evangelization and trade.
But not conquering, right?
DL – Not with soldiers. And, in fact, the main reason we were expelled, the Jesuits, had to do with those who felt disadvantaged in power and business by the strength of the Portuguese. The daimyo Toyotomi Hideyoshi had a good relationship with our most influential Jesuit priest, João Rodrigues, who spoke Japanese fluently and brought him news about the outside world, about Europe. But the Japanese often said to him: Who is your king? Is he Spanish or Portuguese? Because I heard he is Spanish. João would say, he is Spanish, but we don’t like them. The japanese would be suspicious, and ask: What guarantees do I have that they’ll come here with ships full of soldiers, cannons, like the Spanish did in the Philippines? And then there were rumours and a terrible atmosphere. We practically only went to Nagasaki, about one ship a year. And the arrival of that ship was so impactful, it brought silk – the silk from the Chinese who, due to warlike and political reasons, had a terrible relationship with the Japanese. They brought the highly desired silk to Japan and got silver in the trade.
That negotiating skill is also very present in Tokyo, isn’t it? Tokyo is a commercial city, everywhere.
BT – Nowadays, yes. It’s all very commercial. Anything, even a Portuguese sweet, like pastéis de nata, anything French… But also, being such a big city, some historic shops still manage to survive. And there are also new concepts, new ideas. Using materials or products from traditional culture, so there’s a lot of craftsmanship. Masters need 10 years of practice with other masters… And there’s a strong heritage in this work…
DL – I found a shop just for honey.
A trend in being Japanese, I think, is always doing something. Always. Always doing. In my parents’ generation, before computers, it was much more about doing, working, achieving, and if it doesn’t work, fixing it. It’s not a religion, but something… there’s still this spirituality from ancient Shintoism. Space holds energy. It’s a living thing. It’s living energy. We have to tend to it. Otherwise, the space gets upset.
Beniko Tanaka
Tokyo is a gigantic city, but it’s also a collection of small neighbourhoods. That’s also discussed in this book. You feel it on two scales. Metropolis and neighbourhood, right?
DL: I feel that. There are moments when I feel like I’m in a gigantic metropolis. That I can’t even imagine how big it is. And at the same time, suddenly, I feel like I’m in a small village when I’m inside neighbourhoods. I’m on a micro-scale. It’s as if there are small villages within a big city. I think the neighbourhood, the concept of the neighbourhood… It’s stronger. It’s stronger, isn’t it?
BT: I don’t feel it that way. Traditional neighborhoods. Yes, traditional neighbourhoods. They have communication, they are communal and there are neighbours. But I’ve always grown up in Tokyo. And, well, every time… people feel more disconnected from neighbours. There’s more danger for people on the street…
Danger in Tokyo?
BT: Japanese people feel that…
About what?
BT: If it’s a woman on the street and someone is following her… Or stealing anything. But this is… the media, television, programming, nowadays much more on the internet. It projects the threat. And the Japanese are always looking at some screen. So, that’s it. I feel that what’s really happening is very different from what people are concerned about. My parents didn’t let me watch television when I was younger. I grew up in central Tokyo. In Nerima, not exactly the center.
DL: Where do you feel safer? In Lisbon or Tokyo?
BT: In Lisbon.
DL: Seriously?!
BT: Yes. It’s… It’s strange, isn’t it? Why do you ask that? Because it is indeed strange. It’s strange.
DL: But when we see the rankings of the safest countries in the world, Portugal is ahead of Japan.
BT: I think it has a lot to do with the control felt in Tokyo. Tensions of “you can’t do this, you can’t do that. This is already very dangerous”. We have many invisible things but rules. Yes, for example, on trains, metros, buses, nobody says: “you can’t talk!” But nobody talks. No drinking, no eating. And these are things we feel, almost telepathically, we have to be like this to understand the rules. This is interesting, but at the same time, there are strong tensions. It has to be at a very nerve-wracking level.
What do you miss about Tokyo while in Lisbon?
BT – Onsen (public baths). The treatment of nature with hot, thermal water is very different from here. Japan is a volcanic country, it has an abundance of water, which is something super incredible. It’s hard to say, maybe I…
DL – I miss the trains and the metro. Being able to go from one place to another quickly. I remember once, I was going to have dinner at a restaurant that I thought was in Tokyo. And it was 160 km away from Tokyo. It was 5 in the afternoon and I was at home because dinner was at seven. And I was relaxed and they called me asking me where was. And I said “I’m home”. “At home?!” They gave me the name of a city and I thought it was a neighbourhood. “And how are you coming?” I said I’d take an Uber. “No! But this is 160 km away from Tokyo!!!” It was like going to Coimbra. Dinner in Coimbra. And it was five in the afternoon. They checked online that if I took the metro in 15 minutes from there, with a connection at Tokyo Central Station, and caught the next train, I’d arrive around seven. And it was true. With the Shinkansen to that city, I can’t remember which one, to go to one of the best restaurants in Japan, and I arrived on time. And I thought in Lisbon, I wouldn’t arrive on time if it was in Oeiras!
I miss the public transportation. Why? Because it allows us to use our own car less. It promotes better health, even if people travel in silence, in a less relaxed environment. But we know what to expect. The predictability, in that aspect, gives us some tranquility.
David Lopes
Why is there such a good transportation network?
DL: If there wasn’t a transportation network, it would be chaos. Perhaps the city grew thanks to that network. But the trains… haven’t changed much in the last 20 years, there’s not much innovation. If we read accounts of Tokyo just after World War II, it was a completely destroyed city. There is a book by the portuguese Ambassador Franco Nogueira, and he recounts the following weeks and months after the end of World War II. He gives us a very harsh and difficult portrait, including the separation of transportation between Japanese and foreigners, who didn’t mix at the beginning; it was prohibited. His observations were: ‘I came back to this street after a month and there are already shops open. I came back to this street after three months, and there are already buildings constructed and inhabited.’ So, it gives an image that there’s a mobilization of the population who wants to rebuild Tokyo and its soul as quickly as possible. And I don’t know to what extent this doesn’t fit into the answer. There was a blank slate and it allowed the road and rail system and transportation itself to be thought. I don’t know. It must have something to do with that.
This is a big difference in Lisbon, isn’t it? The critical mass in Tokyo makes it possible for a small business to thrive. In Lisbon, on the other hand, we don’t seem to know how to take advantage of these crafts that disappear. When you arrive in Lisbon, David, what do you feel?
DL: I became more sensitive to the litter, more sensitive to the noise, to the bad smells. Although maybe the smell has more to do with nightlife in places with many bars. I think here it’s easier for the space to become degraded. And it bothers me more. But after spending many months here… I no longer notice it. I get used to it, and that’s bad.
The issue of trash makes a big difference with Tokyo.
DL: There’s no trash on the streets. None at all. Even in highly pressured tourist areas. It wouldn’t hurt us not to continue with that notion of “oh, we’re Latinos…” No, no. I don’t think we can be that way for certain things. Nothing stops us from being obsessively concerned with public spaces. And we really should be.
The public space is the most democratic thing we have to offer. It’s where the rich and poor, happy and unhappy, all mingle. It’s something Japan proudly showcases. And I think Japan, in that aspect, is an extraordinary example. What we have there is an obsession: I care about what is around me… And everyone shares this concern, don’t they?
David Lopes
BT: Yes. We learn this in primary school. I learned it. And if we do something… we clean up. Take the trash home to avoid littering. Like, if we do something, it’s garbage, it’s dirty, clean it up…
DL: Education. Education. Education. Civic education. It’s always like that. And where it’s clean, there’s less littering.
Do you have an interesting episode about this during your time in Tokyo?
DL: Occasionally, we need people to come home to help with something, even if it’s just drilling holes in the wall to hang a picture. Its a marvel for a portuguese to see a man drilling a hole in the wall with a small vacuum cleaner underneath to catch all the dust that falls from the hole. It’s a revelation. It’s extraordinary. Instead of it landing all over the baseboard, which is typical, right? No. The person doing the drilling leaves it impeccable.
Beniko, when you arrived here… there was a lot of disorganization. Whistles on the street…
BT: I remember noticing the pigeons. The pigeons occupied… space. The buildings. Everything. I even wrote a poem about the pigeons of Lisbon. About the pigeons of Lisbon. Because… The pigeons of Lisbon were very slow. But cars passing over them, I had never seen that. In Tokyo, the pigeons are super fast, like people, they run away from everything. Not here…
DL: The city of slow pigeons…
But it’s a good title, Lisbon is the city of slow pigeons.
BT: Exactly, the city of slow pigeons. But it’s good, it’s good. But this… It was strange to me. In Tokyo, whenever cars pass, people move quickly. Yes. Everything is fast.
There’s a different pace in Tokyo and Lisbon.
DL: Yes, people walk fast there and they’re careful when they walk slower, moving to the left to let others pass.
But the pace of work isn’t faster. It’s bureaucratic as well, isn’t it?
DL: Yes, it’s a generalization, of course. But it’s even more considered, I mean, it takes longer to make a decision. There are many meetings about the same thing.
BT: It’s not good to fail. There’s a bit of a fear of failure. It’s a politically strong issue too. Because when you fail… it’s total responsibility.
DL: If my failure has negative consequences for others, I publicly apologize.
BT: That’s mental hara-kiri. That… Nowadays, you can’t use hara-kiri, but…
DL: I’ve seen several times in the newspapers, companies that made mistakes with a defective product. The Board of Directors took responsibility. A formal, written apology, and the team bowing in apology.
BT: Shazai. A very heavy bow.
DL: So, I saw this position from everyone, the team, management, right, in a newspaper photo, an apology to society for the mistake they had made. It’s not even responsibility, it’s really guilt.
BT: And there’s difficulty in apologizing. This always sticks in my mind. And admitting the mistake. In Portugal, this was a huge cultural shock for me… At the beginning of my life in Lisbon, schedules… I didn’t know I could be late for a meeting. I never learned that. It always has to be five minutes early.
With friends I met early on, in school, while learning Portuguese, it would be five minutes, ten minutes, thirty minutes, and I’d be… What happened? I’d call, then they’d say… Oh well, we… Sorry, I can’t go out… What!!! It broke my heart. But it’s true, for the Japanese to do that… it’s like total disrespect!!! I learned that. Yeah, but it took some time.
Baniko Tanaka
DL – The company I worked for in Tokyo had two tall towers. I worked on the eighth floor of one tower, but often had meetings in the other building.
And my assistant always reminded me that 20 minutes before the meeting, I had to leave. Because it was expected that I would arrive a little before the meeting started.
David Lopes
Because the meeting starts at that time, not when we arrive. So if I arrive right at the start, the meeting will be delayed. “You have to leave. López San, you have to leave.” She placed in my schedule the meeting time and the time I had to leave my office to arrive on time.
And the street life… It’s something that is talked about a lot in the book, the habit of being out on the streets, of living the city.
DL – Many of those places I ended up at because of street life. So many of them I found without searching for them. One of the most interesting things in Tokyo is street life. Especially when the weather allows it, like late afternoon or weekends, walking around Tokyo. There are dozens and dozens of galleries, restaurants, houses… Taverns. Design stores, bookstores… So, there are so many little things… Supermarkets too. So many little things… And gardens. Small gardens. Street life is very interesting. And when we need help and ask for help, we get help.
Despite the fact that contact is quite restricted, isn’t it?
DL – Yes. You can feel completely alone and not speak to anyone. Because people don’t approach you either. First, because you’re Western they don’t see you. So, you can spend a whole day walking… Without talking to anyone. Without even making eye contact, right? But people look, just not directly. I never looked directly, but I felt several times, slightly observed. I think it depends on our state of mind. It can also be very good and redeeming. And I don’t feel invaded in my privacy. If my state of mind is to want to talk to someone… no…
Beniko, that was one of the first clashes when you came to Lisbon, right?
BT – Oh, this is what I wanted to learn. I wanted to learn how to communicate… For example, in Japan, there’s no kissing. And… our kiss, which is Japanese, is about distance. Like, I know… a minimum of 60 centimetres, around that. Closer than 50 centimetres, we panic. Too close. A touch. I learned that. But at first? At first… when I arrived here, people… touched each other! How are you? All good? Where do you want to go? Even without me knowing what to say. And many times, they gave me completely wrong directions, but it’s okay. Communicating, right? A touch. And how did I feel? I felt human! Welcome… Yes. Like this… This way of communicating, I have to learn.
And when you go back?
BT – Ah… I have to… change my mindset. Yes. After getting off the plane… Step by step… It’s… I have to meditate. I can’t kiss anyone. I can’t hug anyone.
And that’s why you’ll never stop feeling strange.
DL – Yes. I think that’s a good definition. The fact that there isn’t a direct… Visual contact. And there isn’t a friendly touch that’s welcoming, on the arm. I think the way to express that is: you’ll always be a stranger. Or it will always be strange for you. Even when you’ve been working with people for a long time. I remember a lady I worked with, she was one of the first people I met in Japan. So, I had a 4, 5-year professional relationship with her. And I felt her almost like a mother. In that sense, really. And it was a great victory for me, in the end, to be able to give her a small hug. But it was a very brief hug. I mean, inclined. Each one leaned to their side. To the left side and to the right side. And I asked for permission. Because I knew she was going to retire, I wasn’t going to be with her anymore. And I really needed to express that. But I wondered if she would prefer that I didn’t. But it was the maximum I could manage.
BT – People like it. In the end, they like it. But we don’t have that culture. We don’t know how to communicate without distance. We don’t know.
What could Lisbon learn more from Tokyo?
DL – I am very sensitive to the issue of urban planning and urban management. Partly because it’s a professional defect. The part about urban management processes. It would be very interesting to delve into urban management solutions. And see what good practices we could use. Waste management, for example. Street cleaning, the model. Where the responsibilities of municipalities end. The parishes. How do they harmonize? We have this problem here. Which are the responsibilities of merchants and residents? The days when trash is dumped and when it’s not. Understanding that not everyone can have trash bins at the door. And that, in some cases, you may have to walk a block on a specific day to put specific trash in that corner. This is an aspect that Lisbon or any other city could learn or delve into from Tokyo. Then there’s the issue of public transportation as well. The schedules. And then there’s another dimension, which is the comfort of public transportation itself. But this is also a social issue, not talking, not eating, not yelling. Talking on the phone.
After having been to Japan and lived there for two years, I also can’t. I don’t have to listen to those people who talk on the phone. With the phone on speaker. And they do this. And talk. And I’m listening. And on the street. That’s an issue. That’s what we have to do. It’s an issue. But it’s the bare minimum. We don’t need anything else. The noise issue is another dimension. The total disrespect of honking. And intolerance.
In Tokyo, it’s related to less traffic.
DL – But people don’t honk. And there are far fewer concentrated cars. But there are very congested roads. Standstills. Especially during rush hours! Yes. When entering or leaving. On the main axes. I worked 40 km from Tokyo. And it was in the opposite direction of traffic. But sometimes everything was stopped.
Inside the city, cars are not visible. What I saw there were many commercial vehicles—people working, vans for loading and unloading. Parking is extremely expensive, it’s a fortune. People can’t have a car if they don’t have a place to park it. Parking on the street, that doesn’t exist.
David Lopes
In Lisbon, what distresses me is how alcohol circulates on the streets. I find it horrible. It’s not about having a drink by the door of a bar, if there’s a terrace. If there isn’t a terrace, there’s no need to drink in public. Because that relates to other issues such as dirtiness and the improper use of public spaces as restrooms. That part is inadmissible and we cannot allow it, not even for tourists visiting us. Sometimes it happens because we’re also a destination for cheap beer.
You can also read this in portuguese:
Catarina Carvalho
Jornalista desde as teclas da máquina de escrever do avô, agora com 51 anos está a fazer o projeto que melhor representa o que defende no jornalismo: histórias e pessoas. Lidera redações há 20 anos – Sábado, DN, Diário Económico, Notícias Magazine, Evasões, Volta ao Mundo… – e segue os media internacionais, fazendo parte do board do World Editors Forum. Nada lhe dá mais gozo que contar as histórias da sua rua, em Lisboa.
✉ catarina.carvalho@amensagem.pt
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