Program: The case against hookup sex with Hannah Ferguson

Content Warning
Hey ladies, just a heads up that this episode touches on sexual violence. Please take care while listening, and if you need, we've popped some resources in the show notes.

Hannah
It's very much something my friends and I always talk about is how for years you harbour this like secrecy around like, oh am I wrong for not wanting to go and have sex all the time with random people? Like that's what I'm like, I think it's important, yeah.

Yumi
I want you to meet Hannah Ferguson. You might have seen her on your TikTok or Instagram where she calls out mistreatment of women and everyday misogyny. Or you might have caught her searing speech at the Women's March calling for an end to gendered violence and the media's complicity in that. Whatever the platform, she's not afraid to speak fearlessly about the big stuff. Hannah is the founder of Cheek Media Company and her second book, Taboo, looks at the experience of modern womanhood delving into everything from our relationships, how we feel about our bodies and the way that we are having sex now. Part of that is hookup culture and whether as women we've been sold a lie. She calls for engagement from all genders to progress toward a more equal world. Oh, and she wants to be prime minister and she's only 25 years old. Hannah came of age in the era of Tinder and free ubiquitous porn. Her generation was told that they could have sex with whomever they pleased, whenever they wanted, in whatever way they wished. Hannah absorbed this message and got on the apps as soon as she could and started dating. But her first forays into sex were not what she'd been sold. I'm Yumi Steins. Ladies, we need to talk about how hookup culture is failing women.

Hannah
I didn't have sex for the first time until I was 20. I was terrified. I have vaginismus, which if people don't know is basically like a sort of psychosomatic condition, which means like it's very much driven by psychological factors. That essentially means that I would sort of tense my vaginal muscles, which would cause pain during penetrative sex.

Yumi
Despite the pain, Hannah felt like she had to endure these early sexual encounters and that she should keep quiet about her discomfort.

Hannah
I was so frightened by the idea of intimacy with men that all of my sexual experiences were quite traumatising because I would experience pain. I would not really be in the moment. I would be in my head and I felt more compelled to have sex, not because I necessarily wanted to, but because I felt that as a young woman, I was supposed to be having sex.

Yumi
It's so interesting to hear you say that because I think a lot of women feel the same way. Like there's this unspoken obligation that as women, we should be up for sex. And if we're not, there's something wrong with us.

Hannah
I would actively participate in sexual experiences that I wasn't enjoying and I would just go through the motions. Not because I wasn't consenting, but there wasn't enthusiastic consent. Now that's a murky definition, but I think the point I'm trying to make is so many women think that they're just supposed to be having sex without actually being able to articulate or feel what they want that to look like and the kind of connection they want to have with whoever they're having sex with.

Yumi
It's one of the hardest things in the world to advocate for yourself sexually, especially when you're young and not even sure what kind of sex you want.

Hannah
I think we've been sold a narrative of sex positivity that has actually come before education that empowers us to know what we want from sex. Because the question I always come back to now for myself after years of having a pretty, I would say an amateur or like really low level understanding of sexual desire and sexual wants and needs myself is what does sex mean to me? And what do my relationships mean to me? And what should they bring? And what should I provide to them? And I think that for a long time, we've kind of been taught that we're supposed to have sex in the way that patriarchy wants and that's empowerment.

Yumi
Let's talk about sex positivity. Has it served women, do you think?

Hannah
I think that, you know, especially the messaging of the early 2000s and then 2010s, like especially things like Sex and the City, for example, it really showed us that it should just be like you're having sex all the time and this sort of vision of what it could be like. And so I think that women were taught through popular culture messaging and through kind of like, you know, post contraception, in this era, it's like you can have sex and not actually have the responsibility of babies, basically. I think it's really interesting now to be having the discussion of we sort of jumped the gun. We jumped the gun on the popular culture messaging without changing the stigma, the slut-shaming of women, without actually asking women what they want or how to identify and understand our desires. I think that's the missing puzzle piece here is that we've kind of just... We have been told as women to have sex in the way that patriarchy wants when we're supposed to be escaping that system altogether.

Yumi
Interesting. And I think in your own experience, you could say that that definitely rings true in terms of the sex that you were having. So was that something that you went along with because you were kind of following a script?

Hannah
Yeah, I was having some casual sex last year with a couple of people. And in three instances, the men that I had sex with put their hand on my neck without asking. And I said it was choking. And actually, when we think about that language, that even sort of undermines the act, which is strangulation, right? And in the moment, I didn't stop them. And I am a feminist with a platform of more than 100,000 people who follow me, and I was silent. Like, I didn't know what to do. I became a really passive observer in the experience, and I just thought, get it over with. And even saying it out loud makes me feel embarrassed. But I worry that so many women are having this happen to them, and they don't know what to do because it's so normalised to see violence in porn.

Yumi
We made an episode of this podcast about strangulation during sex, and it was shocking to me that there is so little consent-seeking around something that is so niche and degrading.

Hannah
And even though we have only consented... You may... I enthusiastically consented to those acts of sex. I didn't consent to violence. I didn't consent to those acts, and that's against my boundaries. And yet, in the moment, I was silent. And I think those parts of myself are so confronting now to think back on because it's incredibly difficult afterwards to actually come to terms with what happened because you know that the more you sit with it, the more traumatising it can become too.

Yumi
Can I just say that that could have been also described fairly as a freeze response? Yeah, I believe it was. And often in that freeze response, for people who aren't familiar with the idea, it's self-preservation because your sense is if I fight this, if I say no and refuse, it's become an open conflict and the violence could actually be worse. So your self-preservation is like, right, we're just going to get on with it. We're going to sort of dissociate and wait till it's over. And then we're going to gather up our things and process it in the next 20 years.

Hannah
Absolutely. And this is the thing is that I think about it when someone else says it to you, you can objectively point out what happened to them. But when it's you, so often you're like, well, I'm not a victim here. And we're so unwilling to see violence that occurs to us when we can pinpoint it with ease in others.

Yumi
Yeah. How do you think porn culture has influenced the way that men view women?

Hannah
I think the language, especially around sex and what porn has taught men to be is they've taught men that sex is something that they do to a person, not that they have with a person. And so I don't know, it could be objectification. It could be just pure sexualization. But I think often it's something that men are doing to us in their minds. They're fucking us. They're banging us. They're nailing us. And it's this, and I hate to say those words, but it's this language of domination, of superiority. So whether it's as objects or just as inferior or submissive or whatever it is, there's always a power structure in porn. And there's always this view that it's something that men are doing to us. And I think that's at the crux of the problem. Because it then sort of imposes the assumption that they know better. They know how to do it and we know how to receive it. And there's nothing more to that conversation. And it's such a binary view of what sex is that completely misses the point of connection.

Yumi
And I've had a friend describe how she can see them switch off. And it's almost like they are running that porn loop in their heads and they're not even seeing you anymore as a human being.

Hannah
I, that speaks so deeply to something I've just written for my next book, because one of the things I talk about is knowing in the moment when they're not looking at you, like they might be looking at a body part or something, there's nothing wrong with that. But there's a distinct gap between seeing someone and visually just looking at them. And I can see that switch. And I don't know if that's a universal experience, but that really resonates with me.

Yumi
And when I think about the bad sex that I've had in the past, it's like two people running porn loops in their heads and not actually connecting.

Hannah
Absolutely. It's cold. And it has like, you can tell that it's acting. The storylines are pathetic. And I actually love a good storyline. You know what I mean? No one, no one says that, but I love a good storyline and I'm looking for one. Okay. But it's so interesting because also what visually porn fails in me for is like, you never see someone asked to use a condom. You never see conversations that actually exist in sex and should be present and how they can be incorporated in a really healthy, but also like it can be romantic. It can be sexy. It can be hot. And you're just never taught those things. The actual things that matter are completely missing from those conversations and that sort of visual form.

Yumi
Totally. And you know what else you never see? Belly laughing during the sex.

Hannah
Yes. Yes. Someone queefs. It's funny.

Yumi
It's funny. There's nothing better. Okay. Why do you think so many women tolerate bad sex?

Hannah
Because I think that we've been taught that it is so normal to not actually enjoy sex that much and that there's like this threshold and like, we've been taught that, you know, as a heterosexual woman, you're not going to enjoy sex. I also think that's a really interesting conversation in our sort of literature at the moment. So the rise of the sad girl novel, that's young millennial and Gen Z women who are having reckless bad sex, bad hangovers, bad jobs, and they're really moody. Like there's angst in the air and agony. And I feel like we're fed this message and again, and it's because we're seeing so much of rape culture in our sort of ears and on our phones every single day of like, as a heterosexual woman, especially you are destined to have bad sex and minimal orgasms. And I refuse to engage with that messaging. And so I think that if that's repeated to you over and over that, you know, no one knows how to find the clitoris, it's a lie.

Yumi
Just seems like there's armies of real mid to low rent mattress on the floor guys who can't find the clitoris.

Hannah
And I know that because I've dated those guys. Up a bit, like... No, to the left, you're absolutely wrong.

Yumi
No, you know what it is? It's wash your hands. Can you wash your hands? They smell,

Hannah
your hands smell like chicken wings. Yeah, please. We've just been to dinner for God's sake. And it's been spicy. Can you please, please do me the honour, the privilege.

Yumi
So I guess my point is that, yes, there are a couple of good ones. You might have nabbed one. I'm so lucky. But there seem to be hordes of armies of guys that really need to get educated. Yes. So what are you saying, Hannah? Do we need to give men a map?

Hannah
No, it's not. Look, you know, people say, well, it's not our job to educate. And I agree. It's not. But I think the thing to say is, and I think this applies more broadly to a lot of spaces of conversation, especially around like social and political issues, is my view always is to say it's not my job to educate you is an incredibly unhelpful statement, because in fact, at some point, everyone didn't know. Like at some point in my life, I didn't know these things. That wasn't very long ago for me. And someone told me, one of my friends, one of my parents, one of my family members sat down and had a conversation with me that changed the way I saw myself and others. And that happens hundreds of times every day. Right? I'm not saying to any woman, you have to go out there and show men where the clitoris is and how to touch it. But I think feedback is an important part of sex. And I think that every time I didn't speak up when I wasn't having the sex I deserved, not that it's my fault that I experienced that. But if I had tried to have better communication, or if I was empowered to have better conversations in and around those moments, I would have ultimately learned more about myself quicker. And so I wouldn't say it's your responsibility, but I would say I think that it is our job as people who know better to help people find better as well. And that applies to all conversations beyond sex.

Yumi
Hookup culture is so massive. Dating apps are kind of the way that people connect. What has been your experience of dating apps?

Hannah
I think it's so important to understand that they're a feature of capitalism. Right? And so they are commodifying us continually failing and coming back and back and back time and time again. They are.

Yumi
Yes. They want us to fail at finding somebody.

Hannah
And they claim, no, it's all about connection. We want you to delete us. No, you don't. You make money off us being failures and continuing to be there. Right? And they're not. And that's also a difficult part of being single is that you feel like you're supposed to be dating and you're supposed to be on this treadmill of connection constantly. Right? And I was on the dating apps for years. Like my whole dating experience has been on dating apps. Wow. The age of what? 18. I was on a dating app. As soon as I could be on a dating app, I was on Tinder. And so there's been an evolution of like types of apps, but they are basically monopolised by one company. So it's Bumble is by itself. And then basically every other app is owned by Match Group. So there's just this conglomerate basically that just controls all of it. And it's actually been compared in studies to the feeling of a poker machine. Like the swipe feature is actually just gratification. And I think it means we lack long-term connection or the ability to engage in healthy conflict because so often when you start dating, if it's not quite right, instead of pushing through or having a conversation, we just go back to the gratification of a match, you know, light up. Someone finds you attractive. I think that dating apps have lost touch with what the value of connection is because I think they have positioned it as being like hot people obviously rise to the top. They date a lot, but it's less about actually finding and meeting and engaging with people in sort of complex ways and more about just like getting out there, having sex, participating in hookup culture or sort of just like, you know, I think again, getting that I'm attractive feeling.

Yumi
I mean, we all like being told we're attractive, right? It's very human to want that and for that to make us feel good about ourselves. Tell me what's your experience of the apps?

Hannah
I've been on many dates from dating apps. I've enjoyed all of them. It has been a great way to meet people. I think that's the normal, but I worry about that being the normal because I don't think I know how to go up to someone and just ask them out. That's sort of actually impacting our ability to be rejected as well. And I think that dating apps create this like volatile insecurity level. I remember that I think someone reported that men are 13 times more likely to engage in disordered eating behaviours when they're on a dating app and women are 27 times more likely. Yeah. Just because of that constant engagement with how we look and comparison to others. Right. Because it can really drive how we feel about ourselves. That's dangerous. The way that these... It's a form of social media and it is probably the most toxic form in many ways. And so I think that in years to come, I think we will see a regression in dating apps. But I also think that we need to get back to actually knowing how to meet people and engage with people in more healthy ways outside of our phone screens. So it's sort of gamifying your attractiveness. That's exactly what it is.

Yumi
Ouch. Yeah. That would burn. It does. Oh, so I've never done it. Yeah. And I probably never will. I'm just not interested. I'm going to be single until I'm dead. Yeah. With all the cobwebs in my fanny.

Hannah
Inspiring. I think it's inspiring.

Yumi
After years of unsatisfying and downright painful sex, Hannah went on a fun group date where everyone had to bring a single guy. Her is dipped out at short notice, so she put an emergency call out on social media and the guy who stepped up to fill the ghost's shoes ended up becoming her long-term boyfriend.

Hannah
I've just sort of entered the first truly healthy, fantastic relationship of my life. And suddenly so many women are like, you've won Olympic gold. And I'm like, why is the baseline for a healthy relationship Olympic gold to Gen Z women?

Yumi
The bar is just so low. Like it's comical how low it is. Hook up sex, from what I've observed, seems to be the place where women lose out the most in that we don't want to be banged. That pneumatic drill thrust fucking. Yeah, jackhammer. Jackhammering is so unappealing to just about every woman I know. Yes. I mean, maybe when you're really, really hot, you haven't seen each other for like three weeks and you bang, go for it. Sure. But in most situations... I

Hannah
love that caveat. Maybe in this circumstance, you would want to be compared to a tool, an electric tool.

Yumi
Yeah. He's covered in dust and he smells kind of, he's a bit of BO and he's like, oh yeah, he's wearing these pants.

Hannah
That sounds like a porn plot line.

Yumi
I'm just trying to keep you happy. Okay. So hookup culture seems to be offering that. Do women gain anything from hookup culture?

Hannah
I do think that some women obviously enjoy it. Like I don't want to blanket say like no one's liking it, but I don't think it serves anyone. And I think that most men would agree that it's really not serving their emotional interests as well, but we've all been taught that it's the thing to do. It's the thing to do before settling down. It's the thing to do to explore yourself. When actually I think it's the thing to do to ignore all of those cues. You know, I think that's actually ultimately what it's teaching us. So... Wait, ignore what cues? I think the cues about like what we desire, what we experience pleasure during, what kind of sex we want to be having. I think those natural cues for me were really messed up by hookup culture because again, just speaking for myself, I feel like I was like supposed to be having sex and dating, but every time I sort of did it, I would deeply feel something was wrong. Even though the experiences were totally normal and consensual, I remember walking around thinking something doesn't feel right with this. The way I'm communicating leaves me on edge. The way I'm experiencing intimacy doesn't feel connected in the way I'm seeking out from sex, you know, and only through those feelings of like something's wrong did I realize that it wasn't for me.

Yumi
The thing with hookup culture that I can see is that it seems to come with a shrug of indifference.

Hannah
Absolutely. And there's sort of just like not an actual care or any value placed on people's emotional experiences before and after and during.

Yumi
Yeah. And then what's the point of doing that? Absolutely. And the thing that I think is the big mistake here is that the assumption that men want that as well.

Hannah
That's exactly right. And I think I for a long time did assume that. I assume because it benefits men. And because I think that the sex positivity movement and sort of like the recent decades, the change in what women are free to do sort of societally has meant that we've engaged in this and thought all men like it, we must. But I actually think because historically men have been more able to engage in it, that's why we assumed they liked it. Right. But I think ultimately it doesn't serve anyone.

Yumi
Men like titty fucking and armpit fucking. Like you can't trust what they like. I agree.

Hannah
I simply agree. Bring one in. Can you tell me why you would want to fuck an armpit?

Yumi
Oh, he's gone quiet. He's just looking down at his own armpit somewhat sheepishly. As a 25 year old, of course, Hannah Ferguson is a work in progress, but she's making huge leaps in her own personal development.

Hannah
I often worry like, again, knowing I'm having the best sex I've ever had right now. Fantastic. But if I hadn't met my current partner, I'm like, how would I have known that I could get there? And I think by doing these things and actually the vision you have of like your perfect relationship and what good sex looks like to you is an important standard. It's not going too far. You're not reaching for the stars by wanting to be respected, trusted, seen in these experiences and to feel hot. That's not like, that's not a spaceship, you know. That's on earth finding good sex and trusted intimate experiences and a good relationship with your own body and your own self. And again, do not think that's an impossible standard or a gold medal.

Yumi
Absolutely not. And you know what I would add to that is if you're lucky enough to have a partner, to treat them like a playmate and explore together. Absolutely. In a goofy, daggy, fun, full of laughter way if you can. I mean, it's got to take a lot of trust and dagginess and fanny farts. Yes.

Hannah
The best bits of sex. That's on my list. Queefing. Queefing.

Yumi
Thanks for listening to this episode of Ladies We Need To Talk. I hope you're seeing some potential pathways for you that might deviate from what you've always thought you had to do. Our futures are unwritten. Your needs and the sex you want and the way you want to be touched and held and cherished. That's your own personal script written by you, starring you. This podcast was produced on the lands of the Gundungurra and Gadigal peoples. Ladies We Need To Talk is mixed by Anne-Marie de Bettencourt. It's produced by Hannah Achilles. Supervising producer is Tamar Cranswick and our executive producer is Alex Lollback. This series was created by Claudine Ryan. Now, because you're listening to Ladies We Need To Talk, I feel like I can fairly safely assume that you're not going to be interested in getting real and you aren't shy about, well, about sex. And that's why I want to recommend another podcast, The Hookup, with Dee Salmon and Pip Rasmussen. Hey, Dee. Hey, Pip. Hello. Okay. Tell us what is coming up on The Hookup.

Pip
Well, if you have never heard of us before, let us give you a little rundown. We're all about love, sex, dating, relationships. We answer your questions. We learn stuff together. We normalise shit.

Dee
We also bitch about dating apps a lot. That's a big thing that you'll hear on The Hookup. We talk a lot about what it's like to be a young person dating at the moment, the frustrations, but also a lot of the fun that you can have as well. The Hookup. You can find it on the ABC Listen app.