Update | CK says he was unaware of the Tosh incident when he tweeted, a claim I find implausible. But he also says that the whole thing made him more aware of women’s experience of rape than he had been.
Louis CK is about a year older than me. He, like me, is a divorced joint-custody father of two. His daughters are each about a year older than mine, and like mine they go to pretty good New York City public schools. Like me he’s a bearded pasty Manhattanite who could stand to lose a few pounds. Like me he’s trying to be an anti-racist, anti-sexist, decent human being in the face of a hell of a lot of training to the contrary.
And he’s brilliant, so when he talks about his life and his worldview, he frequently says stuff I wish I’d said, or figured out before. Louis CK has stood on my television and told me true things about how I feel about being a parent that I didn’t know until he said them. He’s said serious things about serious things that I’ve repeated over and over.
And so I’m sad tonight, and pissed off.
If you don’t know the background, here it is:
Not long ago, on Tumblr, someone posted a note from a friend about how she’d inadvertently wandered into a Daniel Tosh standup show and how things got really creepy:
So Tosh then starts making some very generalizing, declarative statements about rape jokes always being funny, how can a rape joke not be funny, rape is hilarious, etc. I don’t know why he was so repetitive about it but I felt provoked because I, for one, DON’T find them funny and never have. So I didnt appreciate Daniel Tosh (or anyone!) telling me I should find them funny. So I yelled out, “Actually, rape jokes are never funny!”
I did it because, even though being “disruptive” is against my nature, I felt that sitting there and saying nothing, or leaving quietly, would have been against my values as a person and as a woman. I don’t sit there while someone tells me how I should feel about something as profound and damaging as rape.
After I called out to him, Tosh paused for a moment. Then, he says, “Wouldn’t it be funny if that girl got raped by like, 5 guys right now? Like right now? What if a bunch of guys just raped her…”
Yeah. So she left, obviously, and asked for a refund which she didn’t get, and then told the story to the friend who posted it. And then folks found out about it and reblogged it (or whatever the hell they do on Tumblr, I don’t know), and it got traction and eventually Tosh himself responded on Twitter:
“all the out of context misquotes aside, i’d like to sincerely apologize http://j.mp/PJ8bNs“
That’s a non-apology, of course, since it doesn’t include any specific acknowledgment of wrongdoing. And it’s a particularly churlish non-apology since it accuses his accuser of unspecified sins. It’s bullshit, in short. But whatever, it’s Daniel Tosh, who was always an asshole. Why should today be any different?
And then Louis CK stepped in. Damn it.
Now, I should say that as righteous as CK has often been, he’s stumbled sometimes, as do we all. He’s made some moves I wouldn’t have made, said some things I wish he hadn’t. And he’s also said some things that I wasn’t sure how to take.
Specifically, he’s told some rape jokes. In each case, if I squinted, I could read them as rape culture jokes, jokes about how screwed up our society is when it comes to rape, jokes about how screwed up men are when it comes to sex and power and control. As a white guy, I don’t want to say white guys can’t make weird uncomfortable jokes about race and gender. Sometimes, in some contexts, we can and do. Sometimes in doing so we speak to important truths.
I’m not going to defend any specific joke tonight, and I’m not going to defend the general principle either. Maybe I’ve been wrong when I’ve done it in the past. I don’t know. What I do know is that I gave Louis CK too much credit for navigating those questions thoughtfully and consciously, because what Louis tweeted after Tosh tweeted his non-apology is this:
@danieltosh your show makes me laugh every time I watch it. And you have pretty eyes.
Dude. Come on.
Come on.
What we know about that night is that a woman says Daniel Tosh joked, after she called him on making rape jokes, that it’d be funny if a bunch in the guys in the audience raped her. How on earth is that funny? How on earth is that not fucked up?
I’m not going to say that Tosh was giving the guys in the audience a green light to rape that woman. But you can’t not say he was giving them the green light to screw with her. You can’t say he wasn’t sending them the message he thought it’d be funny if they made a bunch of jokes to her face, in a dark parking lot, about how they ought to rape her right there. You can’t say that if they did that, they’d have any reason to believe he’d think it wasn’t cool.
You know about jokes. You know far more than me about jokes. And that joke just isn’t okay.
35 comments
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July 11, 2012 at 12:18 am
12345
This is Louis CK. There is a reason he is not troubled by jokes about sexual assault. http://gawker.com/5894527/which-beloved-comedian-likes-to-force-female-comics-to-watch-him-jerk-off
July 11, 2012 at 12:19 am
d.g.
His response was thoughtless and stupid, but him i could forgive. tosh i couldn’t. i don’t think any man could understand how he made that woman feel.
July 11, 2012 at 12:22 am
Angus Johnston
12345, someone tweeted that at me earlier. I don’t know how I’m supposed to take your word for it that that’s true. I mean, your name is a number. WTF.
d.g., Why assume he can’t understand? I don’t think it’s that complicated.
July 11, 2012 at 1:12 am
Cade DeBois (@lifepostepic)
Well, since you won’t, I’ll be specific then: Louis CK once joked that no one would (publicly) claim that there were “good reasons” for rape. He also once joked how if he could travel back in time,he’d rape Hitler so viciously that Hitler won’t do any of the things Hitler is known for. In other words, Louis CK seems to think there are indeed “good reasons” for rape which are essentially the same “reasons” people who rape lesbians to make them “straight” use to rationalize their views and use of rape. Frankly, I find this intolerably creepy and sickening, which is why I cringe whenever white dudes gush over how “righteous” Louis is while pushing this issue aside for their white dude convenience and comfort level. It’s a bit like that hilarious uncle that everyone in the family loves while ignoring the fact that you once walked in while he was fondling your younger sister. People see what they want to see, but that doesn’t make that creepy uncle a decent person.
And regarding Louis’ tweet to Tosh: creeps gonna be creepy. That’s what they do, no matter how you choose to see them otherwise. Sorry.
July 11, 2012 at 1:35 am
12345
> Why assume he can’t understand?
You already answered that question yourself:
>> What I do know is that I gave Louis CK too much credit for navigating those questions thoughtfully and consciously
July 11, 2012 at 1:48 am
All the Tuesday Night Links, and It’s Really Tuesday This Time, or Maybe Wednesday, Who Can Say « Gerry Canavan
[…] Two more good pieces on the subject: zunguzungu’s (…) and Student Activism’s “Goddamn it, Louis.” Here’s Aaron: The phrase “rape culture” describes the way people don’t get too upset […]
July 11, 2012 at 2:04 am
Iris
Rape (and rape culture) would be not funny to them if the jokesters and their fans had to live with the implied threat of it every day of their lives.
Using rape as a punishment is about as low as one can go.
July 11, 2012 at 2:57 am
Heather
Thank you. Thank you for getting it, knowing this crossed a line and feeling seriously uncomfortable and concerned with people like Louis CK, people who may have previously been quotable on gender inequality or queer rights, but who now are supporting guys who make degrading and harassing rape jokes and rape comments towards women. I feel similarly disappointed about Louis CK tonight. A ‘joke’ is not worth threatening women with harassment about sexual violence.
July 11, 2012 at 12:55 pm
Jay Schiavone (@jaytingle)
I took it to mean that he thinks Tosh’s TV show is funny. And that he understands what it’s like to fuck up on stage and is showing “comedian mercy.” I have never been a comedian, but I imagine the experience entails much more loathing than laughter and that comedians are probably fairly messed up in the main. Not sure it was necessary to let Tosh off publicly, though.
July 11, 2012 at 1:45 pm
Michael Moscicke (@ASMGov)
I’m not a fan of Louis CK, Tosh, or really anyone who utilizes the type of shock humor they do. But, just to play devil’s advocate, if Louis CK really is as clever as you claim could it be possible that his tweet response to Tosh may have been an ironic play on Tosh’s treatment of the woman in the audience? Look at the format: “your show makes me laugh every time I watch it,” could have been an ironic statement and then “And you have pretty eyes,” could be taken as commentary on the way in which Tosh objectified the woman in his audience.
In all likelihood it was just one creepy comedian metaphorically slapping another on the back, but there is a slight chance that there was a bit more behind his tweet.
July 11, 2012 at 2:33 pm
Rachel A. Hanson
I have to admit, I’m not a huge fan of mainstream comedians for this very reason. Rape, rape culture, generalizations about specific types of people, etc, is not even remotely funny to me.
Thank you so much for writing about this. As a rape survivor and an anti-sexual violence activist I find it to be absolutely empowering to read things like this from people who are not like me (ie, not rape victims/survivors.) It makes me feel that people out there are actually getting it!
July 11, 2012 at 7:53 pm
john mcguirk
cmon people, quit getting so offended at a damn joke. rape jokes are hilarious…in fact, the only thing funnier than rape jokes are dead baby jokes
July 11, 2012 at 8:38 pm
Angus Johnston
Is it your experience that rape jokes are funny to women who’ve been raped, John? Just curious.
July 11, 2012 at 9:01 pm
john mcguirk
cant speak for women who have been raped, angus…not even sure that ive ever met one. not seeing your point here…
July 11, 2012 at 9:04 pm
john mcguirk
also, angus johnston sounds like a really top notch A+ porno name. if thats your real name, your parents deserve a medal
July 11, 2012 at 9:08 pm
Angus Johnston
My point, John, is that saying “rape jokes are hilarious” without thinking about whether they’re hilarious to women who’ve been raped is pretty weird. I’d think that group — and it’s not a small group — would be at the front of the mind of anyone making a rape joke to a mixed crowd.
And yeah, John. You’ve met women who’ve been raped. You’ve met a LOT of women who’ve been raped. Might want to chew on that one, too.
July 11, 2012 at 9:24 pm
john mcguirk
just trying to rustle your jimmies, champ. you all are such a sensitive bunch. need to stop taking comments from comedians so seriously.
im not saying all rape jokes are funny, im sure it depends on the joke…but are you saying tosh doesnt have a right to tell a controversial joke just because everyone doesnt think its funny? i would love to censor carlos mencia’s stupid mexican jokes, but unfortunately he has a right to say what he wants
by the way, according to the owner of the comedy club the girl embellished parts the story and left out other parts. she apparently stayed till the end of the show and therefore did not get a refund
July 11, 2012 at 9:29 pm
john mcguirk
you act like tosh is the first comedian to joke about rape
July 11, 2012 at 10:07 pm
Angus Johnston
I wish just once when one of you guys stepped to me with your proof that rape jokes could be funny, you went with this one:
July 11, 2012 at 11:13 pm
Aaron
“Now, I should say that as righteous as CK has often been, he’s stumbled sometimes, as do we all. He’s made some moves I wouldn’t have made, said some things I wish he hadn’t.”
I understand this is your blog and you can say whatever you like, but maybe your problem starts with the fact that you seem to think of yourself as the only one qualified to judge what is and isn’t ‘righteous’. Anyone who makes a move you wouldn’t make = wrong? Must be nice to be perfect.
“So what am I supposed to do with you now?”
Do you read these back before posting? I’m curious if you’re intentionally trying to come off like a condescending, smug prick for effect, or if its just natural for you.
July 11, 2012 at 11:31 pm
john mcguirk
lol…is this guy trying to put wanda sykes in the same sentence as george carlin? i watched that video and i may have chuckled once. i know youre probably a huge over the top women’s rights activist and probably dont have a penis, but dont post a video that has nothing to do with the subject at hand just because theres a woman telling the jokes…
July 11, 2012 at 11:37 pm
Manners, Please (Season 3, Episode 2) | Dear Television
[…] response to Tosh was a surprise, indeed, though not the one I’d wish for. As a variant on Angus’s final sentence on this subject, so what am I supposed to do with this story […]
July 11, 2012 at 11:37 pm
Angus Johnston
So Aaron, if I’ve got this straight, me saying that CK “stumbles sometimes, as do we all,” is irredeemably arrogant. But you calling me a smug, condescending prick” who thinks I’m perfect isn’t setting yourself up as the arbiter of anything. That right?
And John, the subject at hand was rape jokes. You may have missed it, but that clip I posted IS OF A RAPE JOKE. Hope this helps.
July 11, 2012 at 11:45 pm
Aaron
So, if i’ve got this straight, you are deflecting my comments about your statements by turning the argument back onto me rather than addressing whether the comments themselves are valid or not.
Whether i’m a smug, condescending prick is not really at issue, although i guess you could blog about that if you like. I’ll go ahead and say i am just to keep it simple.
Now, are you a smug, condescending prick?
July 11, 2012 at 11:50 pm
Angus Johnston
My point is that you’re condemning me for (mildly) judging CK’s public statements even as you’re harshly judging mine. It’s the hypocrisy that galls.
I think CK is wrong. You think I’m wrong. Fine. But I’d far rather talk about the substance of your disagreements with me than about whether the fact that I express opinions on CK’s wrongness makes me a prick. Because that’s not a conversation that’s going anywhere ever.
July 12, 2012 at 12:14 am
Aaron
Ok, here’s the substance of my disagreement. I certainly understand that rape is an unfathomably horrible thing that is likely always somewhere lurking in the back of many women’s minds, and to have someone throw it into your face in such an aggressive way must be incredibly scary. I don’t doubt at all that the woman must have felt threatened and sickened and uncomfortable. Rape is an unmitigated evil.
That said, art is fully of horrifying things. As a Jew, watching a Holocaust movie can make me sick. A rape victim seeing “The Accused” might be horrified. And so forth. Daniel Tosh is not a rapist. I’m sure we all agree that Daniel Tosh is not in favor of rape, does not think rape is a good thing, does not think rape is actually funny, etc. but when he’s onstage, he’s not Daniel Tosh, reasonably sane and moral being, he’s “Daniel Tosh”, the legendary asshole trying to be as offensive as possible. He’s giving an artistic performance (and let’s not debate the quality of it, whether he’s a true artist or hack, etc., as that’s besides the point) that is not designed to showcase how he really feels and thinks about things, but rather he uses humor (again, whether you think it’s funny or not…it’s at least attempted humor) to express something. Condemning him for makign rape jokes is like condemning an actor for playing a rapist or an author for writing a novel about a rapist.
People watch horror movies because they want to get scared. People go to see insult or edgy comics because they want to have boundaries pushed. If she wandered into a horror movie mistakenly thinking it was a comedy and got scared, then that’s unfortunate, but it’s not the movie’s fault. And if she didn’t know what Tosh’s act was like and got offended, then that’s unfortunate, but it’s not his fault. And by stepping out of line and attacking him for doing what it is he was supposed to be doing, what the other people there were paying and expecting him to do…how’s he supposed to react to that? Maybe like less of an asshole, of course. saying “it would be funny if you got raped” was a dumb thing to say and i’m sure he regrets it. but in that context, do you expect much different?
July 12, 2012 at 3:59 am
john mcguirk
angus, why have you spent this much time over-analyzing what comments louis ck makes on his twitter? youre acting like its such an outrage that hes supporting tosh’s right to joke about whatever the hell he wants…frankly, you sound like a whiny little bitch about something thats really not that big of a deal…like aaron said, you have to understand that these guys are comedians and often like to stir things up by creating controversy. when youre the entertainment business, any publicity is good publicity and youre one of the many people that keep stoking the fire
this is also why i think it was hilarious when activist groups were protesting eminem’s albums and howard stern’s show. its exactly what they wanted to happen. bigger ratings and more album sales just make the protesters look stupid…
July 12, 2012 at 4:14 am
coach mcg
i bet u laugh at chink jokes angus. you’re all a bunch of whiny pussy hypocrites. you’ll laugh at jokes that other people find offensive. get over it. language should never be regulated in any form. and moralfags should be raped.
July 12, 2012 at 9:02 am
Angus Johnston
Aaron, if standup is art then it can be critiqued as art. And no, that doesn’t mean assuming that the comedian’s character is the comedian. You’re right about that. But it does mean taking comedy seriously as carrying a meaning, whatever that meaning may be (and however people may disagree about what that meaning is).
Ultimately, of course, Tosh’s comedy is pretty crappy art, and doesn’t mean much of anything. That’s why nobody makes a fuss 99 times out of 100 when he makes a rape joke. I explained what’s different about this 100th time in my post.
John, Coach: Have a nice day.
July 12, 2012 at 11:34 am
Kevin T. Keith
Exactly what we’re supposed to believe about Tosh as a person is not as clear to me as it’s supposed to be. The line between what he says as part of an act and what he does as an actual person is pretty blurry for him. (For one thing, his comedy show unmistakably makes him a person who not only thinks rape jokes are funny, but who responds to criticism by training an entire roomful of people on a woman and openly encouraging them to fantasize raping her.)
On his cable show, he staged an infamous gag in which he encouraged men to secretly videotape women while the men snuck up on them and “lightly touch their stomachs”.
http://jezebel.com/lightly-touching-womans-belly/
Yes – he encouraged men to literally physically assault women by surprise and post videos of it. Dozens of them did so, because he told them to (and, obviously, because they were at least as big a misogynist asshole as him). Here, illegal physical assault – unwanted touching – is part of his act. He explicitly told people to do it, for real, and then enabled them by featuring the videos on his show. In the comedy club, he only told people to think about assaulting a woman, but apparently for him the line between viciously traumatizing a woman by threat and actually assaulting a woman physically is just something he chooses for comedic effect.
July 12, 2012 at 1:36 pm
De-constructing Stand-up « Gucci Little Piggy
[…] Twitter that he laughed at his show every time and that he has pretty eyes. At least a couple of bloggers are now frustrated with Louis CK over this. Alyssa Rosenberg of Think Progress is now glad she […]
July 12, 2012 at 8:55 pm
tompaine37
Louis CK could give 2 shits about what someone as cowardly as you thinks about him. Gutless, censor-minded cowards like you and your sycophants are as bad as radical christians and muslims who get on their high horse any time someone makes a joke about God – because it’s not funny! And you have a right to tell everyone what is, and isn’t, right? Lol look at your cowardly picture.
July 13, 2012 at 2:52 am
cortland259
tompaine37, Louis CK and Daniel Tosh— your words and actions just illustrated what it means by rape culture: the culture that condones rape and trivializes the effects of rape. I don’t know if you have any women in your life (ie., girl friend, wife, mother, daughter, niece, etc.) and how you picture them living in the threat and fear of rape, still thinking it funny and hilarious; but of course if you do not have any women in your life, that’ll be another story..
July 17, 2012 at 11:46 pm
Joy
Guess what, Angus. You can go back to liking Louis CK. He never knew about the controversy. See him on the Daily Show explaining his comment: http://FunnyOrDie.com/m/70nb
April 17, 2015 at 3:53 pm
Zachary Charles Greenwald
If you don’t like a comedian’s jokes, it’s your obligation to leave the show. If you heckle, whatever gets said to you is your fault. It’s really that simple, you soft, weak, easily butthurt morons.
And how dare Louis CK like a comedian you don’t like. He’s clearly now worthy of less respect for holding this opinion.